Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I think that you might be more accurate to say that the flags, including the battle flag, featured the stars and bars, not that the featured the battle flag
    Another lawyer's technicality. The battle flag is originally a square Southern Cross battle flag first flown Officially by Robert E. Lee. Battle flags are typically square. When Lee took it as his army battle flag. The Confederacy placed the 'square' battle flag on a white background as the Official National Fag calling it the 'stainless banner,' sometimes included was the 'Bonnie Blue' blue with white star battle flag in the middle. The 'square' blue with a white star battle flag was most often flown with the Southern Cross battle flag after it was adopted by the Confederacy as the Official battle flag.

    The 'square' Southern Cross on the Official flag is 'technically' the same as the official battle flag of adopted by the Confederate armies after Lee adopted the flag. The popular later version is the rectangular flag Official flag version, and was not normally flown as a battle flag, but was sometimes flown as the general's command flag in battles.

    The full flag version of the 'Bonnie Blue' became the Official flag of the State of Mississippi at the time of secession, and then became associated with the Confederacy and used in the 'square' version as a battle flag. Yes, this flag has been used by later groups as a symbol of secession and racism after the Civil War. It is flown with the Southern Cross flag by the Sons of the Confederacy when they sing the Song 'The Bonnie Blue Flag.'Before that it was the flag of the rebellion of Western Florida from Spain.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-02-2015, 12:11 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      No, just present the facts and accurate citations of documents that have no justifiable response that refutes the facts. So far no response, still waiting . . .
      For all your stated desire to see facts and accurate citations, you're being remarkably dismissive of what is technically correct.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • Technically correct, perhaps, but still irrelevant

        Comment


        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          For all your stated desire to see facts and accurate citations, you're being remarkably dismissive of what is technically correct.
          My references to citations, and the history of the flags are 'technically' correct. Nothing that has been presented so far has shown otherwise.

          Yes, my efforts are devoted to technically accurate and specific accurate historical sources, and citations of documents.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-02-2015, 01:27 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
            Technically correct, perhaps, but still irrelevant
            I give you credit for your candor - but it is not irrelevant. The really sad thing is, it strengthens the liberal side of the argument, not the conservative. You (general) guys were so busy defending the idea that it is the confederate flag and therefore offensive (wrong on both points) that you (still general) never noticed that the stronger argument was the one Jim put up - until he shot himself in the foot, of course. Still, the argument of offensiveness that actually has merit is of the CR era - not the CW era.
            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              If the whole argument comes down to mere technicalities then surely the only reasonable course of action is removing the Confederate flag from public places. Regardless of “technicalities” it’s seen, rightly or wrongly, as racist and offensive by very many people including Republican Governor Nikki Haley...not to mention Dylann Roof and his ilk who clearly see it as a symbol of white supremacy.

              http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...hern-heritage/
              I've already pointed out Tass, That I never questioned the removal of the S.C. Flag from the state grounds and advocated an alternative. If you go through the previous 58 pages, and if you read the history of the flag its a centennial commemoration. The flag itself should be in a museum. they can engrave another one on the memorial. My argument against Shuny has been his incompetency with confederate emblems and their original history, he doesn't seem to know them. I don't expect you to know them, you're from the southern hemisphere.
              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                I give you credit for your candor - but it is not irrelevant. The really sad thing is, it strengthens the liberal side of the argument, not the conservative. You (general) guys were so busy defending the idea that it is the confederate flag and therefore offensive (wrong on both points) that you (still general) never noticed that the stronger argument was the one Jimput up - until he shot himself in the foot, of course. Still, the argument of offensiveness that actually has merit is of the CR era - not the CW era.
                Well, I've been pretty consistent that the specific confederate flag in question doesn't matter because all confederate flags, national or battle or whatever, contain the same symbolism of rebellion, slavery, etc.

                Comment


                • confederate flag rap music.jpg
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                    I've already pointed out Tass, That I never questioned the removal of the S.C. Flag from the state grounds and advocated an alternative. If you go through the previous 58 pages, and if you read the history of the flag its a centennial commemoration. The flag itself should be in a museum. they can engrave another one on the memorial. My argument against Shuny has been his incompetency with confederate emblems and their original history, he doesn't seem to know them. I don't expect you to know them, you're from the southern hemisphere.
                    You are the one who does not seem to know the history of the confederate flags Catholicity. They were all created at the same time, Approximately, and they were all created for the same purpose, and that purpose was their seceding from the Union over slavery. The first flag was abandoned because it to closely resembled the stars and stripes of the union. the second flag was all white, an indication of white supremacy, but it looked to much like a flag of surrender, so the third flag was then made by emblazoning the the Virginia battle flag onto the all white background of the second, white supremacist flag. The point is that they were all created at the same point in history for the exact same reason, and again that reason was their seccesion from the union over the right to maintain the practice of slavery.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      You are the one who does not seem to know the history of the confederate flags Catholicity. They were all created at the same time, Approximately, and they were all created for the same purpose, and that purpose was their seceding from the Union over slavery. The first flag was abandoned because it to closely resembled the stars and stripes of the union. the second flag was all white, an indication of white supremacy, but it looked to much like a flag of surrender, so the third flag was then made by emblazoning the the Virginia battle flag onto the all white background of the second, white supremacist flag. The point is that they were all created at the same point in history for the exact same reason, and again that reason was their seccesion from the union over the right to maintain the practice of slavery.
                      wow
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]7772[/ATTACH]
                        I'd praise Walmart if they chose to stop selling rap music with violent, hate filled lyrics.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Another lawyer's technicality. The battle flag is originally a square Southern Cross battle flag first flown Officially by Robert E. Lee. Battle flags are typically square. When Lee took it as his army battle flag. The Confederacy placed the 'square' battle flag on a white background as the Official National Fag calling it the 'stainless banner,' sometimes included was the 'Bonnie Blue' blue with white star battle flag in the middle. The 'square' blue with a white star battle flag was most often flown with the Southern Cross battle flag after it was adopted by the Confederacy as the Official battle flag.

                          The 'square' Southern Cross on the Official flag is 'technically' the same as the official battle flag of adopted by the Confederate armies after Lee adopted the flag. The popular later version is the rectangular flag Official flag version, and was not normally flown as a battle flag, but was sometimes flown as the general's command flag in battles.

                          The full flag version of the 'Bonnie Blue' became the Official flag of the State of Mississippi at the time of secession, and then became associated with the Confederacy and used in the 'square' version as a battle flag. Yes, this flag has been used by later groups as a symbol of secession and racism after the Civil War. It is flown with the Southern Cross flag by the Sons of the Confederacy when they sing the Song 'The Bonnie Blue Flag.'Before that it was the flag of the rebellion of Western Florida from Spain.
                          Well since you want to discuss technicalities...


                          This is actually the first Confederate national flag as established by the "Committee on the Flag and Seal" making it an official flag of the Confederate States of America

                          0000000000cf7.png




                          This is the second Confederate national flag

                          0000000000cf9.png




                          This is the third Confederate national flag

                          0000000000cf11.png




                          And this is the fourth Confederate national flag

                          0000000000cf13.png


                          The differences are the number of stars which changed as more states seceded and joined the Confederacy. The only reason it was later dropped as the official flag was due to the fact it too closely resembled The American flag -- especially when a wind wasn't blowing or it was being waved and it simply hung limply. This led to confusion of the sort that could be deadly on the battlefield.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            You are the one who does not seem to know the history of the confederate flags Catholicity. They were all created at the same time, Approximately, and they were all created for the same purpose, and that purpose was their seceding from the Union over slavery. The first flag was abandoned because it to closely resembled the stars and stripes of the union. the second flag was all white, an indication of white supremacy, but it looked to much like a flag of surrender, so the third flag was then made by emblazoning the the Virginia battle flag onto the all white background of the second, white supremacist flag. The point is that they were all created at the same point in history for the exact same reason, and again that reason was their seccesion from the union over the right to maintain the practice of slavery.
                            I've never seen a more deliberate lie in my life. And its wrapped in so much warped stupid....
                            A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                            George Bernard Shaw

                            Comment


                            • Ehh, rogue, that's the first national flag with updated stars. The second national flag was the stainless banner

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                It was where? Show me.

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]7691[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]7692[/ATTACH]

                                There is no flag of any sort behind Wallace in any picture of the event that I can find. I didn't 'leave out' anything - and unless you can prove this claim, I will be expecting an apology and a retraction.

                                If there isn't one, or proof of your contention, I will draw the obvious inference - and so will everyone else.

                                Prove it or retract it - NOW.

                                No, and you are being ridiculous. Adding the battle flag to a field does not create the same flag - it creates a new heraldic emblem. The confederate flag and the battle flag were used differently during the confederacy's tenure and very differently when the battle flag was re-flown during the CR era. Not the same flag, and not the same use.

                                Did you flunk Sesame Street? Seriously, this is pathetic.


                                It is you telling your opinion of what it means to you and others - it is NOT a factual assessment of what the battle flag is. It's fine if you choose to be offended by it - I'm sure there are some that will appreciate the effort. It's fine if you find a different meaning - that's perfectly valid. It is NOT fine to tell us what we mean by displaying it. You aren't God, omniscient or particularly gifted - so you do NOT have the privilege of telling others what they mean by what they say of do.
                                Sorry T, I missed this post. It seems you may be correct, although the picture you've posted, the doors to the school are open so you wouldn't see the flag if it was there. But I can not find it either,so I have no problem with retracting my assertion and apologizing for it. But its a rather silly issue to want to quarrel with. Whether it was on the door behind him or not is kind of irrelevant, Gov. Wallace raised the flag at the state capital over the court order to desegragate in the same sense that it was created and raised in state capitals throughout the civil war time south as symbolic of secession over slavery. Geesh, how much evidence do you need in order to understand that the flag was about the right of southern states to oppress black people. As I said previously, you are welcome to apply your own meaning to the flag, but you cannot change the purpose for which the flag itself was created and that is what is offenssive to so many people, both black and white.
                                Last edited by JimL; 07-02-2015, 07:00 PM.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                157 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                400 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                373 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X