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Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    [cite=http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html]
    Yeah, ALWAYS best to get your NEWS from websites that SELL STUFF!

    And, on top of that, they're YANKEES!!!!!


    Washington, D.C.
    Civil War Trust Corporate Office

    1156 15th Street NW, Suite 900
    Washington, D.C. 20005
    (P) 202.367.1861
    (F) 202.367.1865



    Because Shuny has ZERO sense of humor, let me be clear that I'm being somewhat facetious.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
      Yeah, too bad that you said the battle flag was a part of every confederate flag bar one, not every official confederate flag bar one. That sure is some major league backpeddling.


      Which is absolutely and unremittingly false.


      You mean the Bonnie Blue? Which was used by the state of Mississippi when it first seceded because it was the official flag of the short-lived republic of West Florida, part of which was in Mississippi's borders?


      That's not true at all. The Bonnie Blue was used by the state of Mississippi as was the Van Dorn battle flag:
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]7734[/ATTACH]


      This flag was used by South Carolina as a symbol of its secession and sovereignty:
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]7733[/ATTACH]

      But none of that really matters since all you are doing is backpeddling.
      No back peddling at all, none of these were official flags of the Confederacy of States of America, and again were local flags. Nonetheless this does not detract from the fact that the Southern Cross battle flag was the most prominent symbol of the failed secession and rebellion of the Southern States founded on the preservation of the Institution of Slavery as the primary economic capital of the South. The South Carolina and the Mississippi flag are only state flags and not an official flag of the Confederacy.

      I already acknowledged that there were many local flags, but I am referring to the Official flags of the Confederacy

      Source: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html




      In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

      Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

      © Copyright Original Source

      Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-01-2015, 03:27 PM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Yeah, ALWAYS best to get your NEWS from websites that SELL STUFF!

        And, on top of that, they're YANKEES!!!!!


        Washington, D.C.
        Civil War Trust Corporate Office

        1156 15th Street NW, Suite 900
        Washington, D.C. 20005
        (P) 202.367.1861
        (F) 202.367.1865



        Because Shuny has ZERO sense of humor, let me be clear that I'm being somewhat facetious.
        Facetiousness is only one of your ways to avoid the facts of history. My dates and sources for history are accurate.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
          Except they don't.
          Yes they do including . . .

          Source: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html




          In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

          Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

          © Copyright Original Source

          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Facetiousness is only one of your ways to avoid the facts of history.
            You DO have a sense of humor!!!!

            My dates and sources for history are accurate.
            You keep citing that same website, Shuny... I looked at the President's bio - he's a history buff who has made a job out of his hobby. He has no real credentials in Civil War History!

            ETA: And, I hate to break it to you, but declaring over and over that your 'facts' are true does not make them true.
            Last edited by Cow Poke; 07-01-2015, 03:55 PM.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              You DO have a sense of humor!!!!



              You keep citing that same website, Shuny... I looked at the President's bio - he's a history buff who has made a job out of his hobby. He has no real credentials in Civil War History!

              ETA: And, I hate to break it to you, but declaring over and over that your 'facts' are true does not make them true.
              I see you presenting nothing to refute them, just Air Balls, or maybe a few Hair Balls Bill the Cat chucked up.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • While I'm certainly not saying that a Northerner cannot be objective about the Civil War, it appears this is mostly a Washington DC area group committed to preserving the Civil War sites around the DC area...

                The Civil War Trust story began in 1987, when twenty or so stalwart souls met to discuss what could be done to protect the rapidly disappearing battlefields around them. Calling themselves the Association for the Preservation of Civil War Sites (APCWS), they were spurred to action watching the expanding suburbs of Washington, D.C. destroy Northern Virginia battlefields. The only way to save these sites for posterity, they decided, was to buy the physical landscapes themselves.


                What are their credentials? They are "stalwart souls".

                It's like Rogue and I were discussing the drastic difference between Civil War History being taught in the North, as opposed to being taught in the South. I just don't trust your source, Shuny.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  While I'm certainly not saying that a Northerner cannot be objective about the Civil War, it appears this is mostly a Washington DC area group committed to preserving the Civil War sites around the DC area...

                  The Civil War Trust story began in 1987, when twenty or so stalwart souls met to discuss what could be done to protect the rapidly disappearing battlefields around them. Calling themselves the Association for the Preservation of Civil War Sites (APCWS), they were spurred to action watching the expanding suburbs of Washington, D.C. destroy Northern Virginia battlefields. The only way to save these sites for posterity, they decided, was to buy the physical landscapes themselves.


                  What are their credentials? They are "stalwart souls".

                  It's like Rogue and I were discussing the drastic difference between Civil War History being taught in the North, as opposed to being taught in the South. I just don't trust your source, Shuny.
                  I am not a Northerner. If you do not trust my source simply present your own. The citations are very literal and accurate from the original documents.

                  It is a fallacy to curse the source, and not respond to evidence in the citations. 'Credentials?' the source simply quoted existing documents.

                  As I described before I am enough of a history buff to understand the citations.

                  Other references that tell a different story?!?!? Still waiting . . .
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-01-2015, 04:12 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    I am not a Northerner.
                    Calm yourself, Shuny - I was talking about the staff of the website you keep referencing.

                    If you do not trust my source simply present your own. The citations are very literal and accurate from the original documents.
                    That doesn't do anything - numerous proofs have been presented to you, but you reject everything that does not align with what you want to believe.

                    It is a fallacy to curse the source, and not respond to evidence in the citations. 'Credentials?' the source simply quoted existing documents.
                    Nobody is cursing the source, but it's sure a good idea to look at the objectivity of the source.

                    Have you had a bad day, Shuny? You seem a bit testy.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      No back peddling at all, none of these were official flags of the Confederacy of States of America, and again were local flags.
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Your omitting the details that the Confederacy battle flag is prominently a part of all Confederate Flags except the first national flag.
                      I think your motto should be: 'The closed mouth gathers no foot.'
                      My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rational Gaze View Post
                        I think your motto should be: 'The closed mouth gathers no foot.'
                        ALL confederate flags DO NOT include local, military unit or state flags. Very early on I directly referred to Official flags of the Confederate States of America, All official flags of the Confederacy after the first flag used the Southern Cross battle flag, which is by far the most prominent symbol of secession and rebellion of the failed state of the Confederacy.

                        There are many local, state, and military unit flags of varying design, probably hundreds. They are not the issue here. The fact that the battle flag is the most prominent Official symbol of the Confederacy and secession and rebellion of a failed state based on preserving the Institution of Slavery is the issue.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-01-2015, 04:48 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          What lie?!?!?!
                          The lie that the WAR was over slavery. It was not. And the lie that secession was THE declaration of war. It was not.

                          No lie here the facts are facts of history. Slavery was the motivation for the South starting the war of secession.
                          That lie.

                          The Union declared war to preserve the Union in response to Southern aggression.
                          South Carolina tried to expel the North from the border of the sovereign nation of South Carolina. It was not until the North declared war and invaded Virginia that the war was started in earnest.

                          The South secesseded from the Union and attacked the Union based on the preservation of slavery as in institution of economic capital.
                          That's a lie. The South attacked a Union fort on Southern land to expel the Northern troops. Had the commander listened to the Union President, there would have been no attack. Slavery had nothing to do with the attack on Sumter, nor on the Northern invasion of Virginia.

                          The Union declared war at that time, because the Confederacy attacked the Union.
                          Because the Union was occupying Confederate land. The Union invaded Virginia first.

                          The Union did not recognize the Declarations od Secession by the Southern States,
                          Irrelevant. The Southern states had created their own government.

                          but war did not start until the South attacked the Union. Lincoln knew that war was inevitable, because of the secession, but used restraint until the South attacked the Union at Fort Sumter.
                          That doesn't support your claim that the war was fought over slavery. The South wanted to be left alone. They did not want war.

                          Source: Harper's Weekly January 5, 1861



                          Resignation of the South Carolina Delegation

                          The Speaker laid before the House on the 24th, a letter signed by Messrs. M'Queen, Bonham, Boyce, and Ashmore, of South Carolina, as follows:

                          SIR,- We avail ourselves of the earliest opportunity since the official communication of the intelligence, of making known to your honorable body that the people of the State of South Carolina, in their sovereign capacity, have resumed the powers heretofore delegated by them to the Federal Government of the United States, and have thereby dissolved our connection with the House of Representatives. In taking leave of those with whom we have been associated in a common agency, we, as well as the people of our Commonwealth, desire to do so with a feeling of mutual regard and respect for each other- cherishing the hope that, in our future relations, we may better enjoy that peace and harmony essential to the happiness of a free and enlightened people.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          South Carolina had no intention of fighting. The war was not over slavery.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            ALL confederate flags DO NOT include local, military unit or state flags. Very early on I directly referred to Official flags of the Confederate States of America, All official flags of the Confederacy after the first flag used the Southern Cross battle flag, which is by far the most prominent symbol of secession and rebellion of the failed state of the Confederacy.

                            There are many local, state, and military unit flags of varying design, probably hundreds. They are not the issue here. The fact that the battle flag is the most prominent Official symbol of the Confederacy and secession and rebellion of a failed state based on preserving the Institution of Slavery is the issue.
                            backpedal-post.gif
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              I see you presenting nothing to refute them, just Air Balls, or maybe a few Hair Balls Bill the Cat chucked up.
                              Sign that Shuny has lost. He starts yelling, "Air ball!" as though he refuted anything you said.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • TV Land is announcing that they will no longer be showing re-runs of Dukes of Hazzard because they have a confederate flag on the car in the show.

                                Source: Confederate flag gets 'Dukes of Hazzard' yanked


                                The Duke Boys have been in trouble with the law since the day they was born, but now they're now feeling the wrath of Confederate flag protesters.

                                TheWrap has confirmed that TV Land has pulled the 1980s-era comedy Dukes of Hazzard from its lineup because it featured a car — called The General Lee — that prominently displayed the flag on the roof.

                                Warner Bros, which produced the show, recently announced they would cease production of all merchandise bearing the flag, including reproductions of The General Lee.

                                Now the show itself, which ran for seven seasons, from 1979 to 1985, is being yanked.



                                Source

                                © Copyright Original Source






                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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