Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    What can you say about someone who became absolutely unhinged over the innocuous jest of "your mother wears combat boots"
    Was that when he threatened to come to Texas and whoop my @$&@@$?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      If you say so.
      I do.


      They didn't necessarily record history wrongly. They recorded history from their perspective.
      An inaccurate perspective. One we should seek to correct, not validate.


      Just want to make sure I have this right. You believe that because the Confederacy armed blacks to fight in their war, there was absolutely no racial element to the Civil War?
      I'm saying that the war was not fought by "a bunch of us honkeys just so we could keep all of those uppity niggers down."



      Wow. So you think that all 15 million Germans that fought in WWII under the Nazi flag were in it to kill Jews and take over the world? Seriously?
      No. I am saying it is highly unlikely that any soldier was unaware of the reason Hitler was fighting the war, and that they were simply fighting to protect Germany.


      Uh...no. I would not now consider the cross a symbol of abuse. I'm a bit taken aback that you do.
      I do not. The person in the blog does. So, again, using the logic that has been brought forth here, we should validate that symbol as a sign of abuse. Are you really willing to concede that the OPINION of what a symbol means should be what it means? Or can you admit that symbols CAN be misassociated by people when they originally did not mean what they mean today to certain people...?

      I said that, "right or wrong, for 150 years the rebel flag has been associated with hate, and racism." You replied, "No." Then went on to tell me that it has been associated with a number of things including racism, with living in the South, and with being a "Country Boy". I reply with "So, not really 'No', but 'Yes, and...'". In other words, Yes, it's been associated with racism, and also other things, like being from the South or being a "Country Boy". You reply again with, "No. I said what I meant."
      I meant No, the association with racism is wrong. Sorry for not making my point clearer.

      Bill, these kinds of goofy nitpicking contradictory statements deserve eyerolls. You're just being obstinate at this point.
      How about you stop posturing and just ask me if you don't understand a reply?


      Says you.
      Says a lot of people. Did removing Mandela reduce the drive toward freedom from Apartheid? Remove something that is a symbol of pride, and another will take its place.



      No. No one is forcing anyone to take down flags. If they're ashamed of the racist association with the flag, then that's between them and their conscience.
      Opponents of the flag are trying to shame those who support it into taking it down. It's a subtle way to force the issue. Any insistence to the contrary is head-in-the sand ignorance.


      Uh, no. It is not highly racist to assume that a black person would be less likely to approach a Klansman in a hood then he would a person in regular street clothes.
      It's stereotypical. Like all blacks have the same fear of the KKK. I detest generalizations like that.

      That's ridiculous. I would be less likely to approach a Klansman dressed in full Klan uniform, than I would a person in regular street clothes.
      Why? Are you prejudiced against the man for what he is wearing? Do you fear him for some reason?

      Honestly Bill, you're saying some pretty wackadoodle things here. Sounds like you're far too close to this issue, and can't seem to see it from an objective perspective.
      As I said, I have argued this issue for decades. I grew up in the capital of the Confederacy. Heck, I went to High School with JEB Stewart's great grandson. I know what I am talking about. And un-factual race baiting irritates me. One need not be objective when they have the facts on their side.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Was that when he threatened to come to Texas and whoop my @$&@@$?
        Yup

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Bill, I don't want to argue with you anymore. We're not going to see eye to eye on this issue.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            I'm saying that the war was not fought by "a bunch of us honkeys just so we could keep all of those uppity niggers down."
            This is an abstruse nonsense response. You still have not responded to the accurate citations I made concerning the primary reasons why the leaders of the Confederacy seceded from the Union.

            Adrift has a good reason for pulling out of the discussion with you considering the above childish response.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              This is an abstruse nonsense response.
              Why don't you just stop typing frank?

              You still have not responded to the accurate citations I made concerning the primary reasons why the leaders of the Confederacy seceded from the Union.
              Yes I did, you clod! I agreed with them. It's YOU who is dodging the response. I'll ask again in small words this time so you can understand...

              When the South split from the North, was that a formal declaration of war by the South? Yes or no?

              Adrift has a good reason for pulling out of the discussion with you considering the above childish response.
              Adrift is a big boy and doesn't need you to answer for him.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                Well, some areas of Ohio are essentially WV as this map can attest:

                Ghetto? Gotta love the "Mistake by the Lake."
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Ghetto? Gotta love the "Mistake by the Lake."
                  Cleveland gets no love




                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Why don't you just stop typing frank?
                    No

                    When the South split from the North, was that a formal declaration of war by the South? Yes or no?
                    They fired on Fort Sumter, occupied it and raised their flag over the fort. They occupied the Union arsenals and ships across the South. This would be a 'yes' in international Law. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Was that a declaration of war?

                    The response was predictable, the USA officially declared war and initiated a blockade of southern ports
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-01-2015, 01:13 PM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      No



                      They fired on Fort Sumter, occupied it and raised their flag over the fort. This would be a 'yes' in international Law. When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Was that a declaration of war?
                      What date did they secede? Then what date did they fire on Sumter? Were they at war between those dates?
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        What date did they secede? Then what date did they fire on Sumter? Were they at war between those dates?
                        Declarations of secession

                        Georgia - Tuesday, January 29, 1861

                        South Carolina - December 24, 1860

                        Texas - February 2, 1861

                        Virginia April 17, 1861

                        Mississippi - Interesting statement in the declaration of secession

                        Source: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html


                        In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

                        Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        Capture of Fort Sumter April 12 -14, 1861

                        Declaration of War by USA - April 15, 1861 President Lincoln issued the first proclamation that secession had become a reality ordering the formation of a war time army. Acknowledged as the Declaration of War in history

                        April 19,1861 - Lincoln orders a blockade of Southern ports, considered the first act of war by the Union.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Declarations of secession

                          South Carolina - December 24, 1860

                          Capture of Fort Sumter April 12 -14, 1861

                          Declaration of War by USA - April 15, 1861
                          So, the secession was not a declaration of war. Between December 20 (not the 24th) and April 12, the sovereign state of South Carolina was not at war with the North over slavery. It was not until Lincoln realized that the South's secession was dangerous that he declared war, not against the South's slavery, but against their secession from the union.

                          So PLEASE stop with that lie.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • Source: Harper's Weekly January 5, 1861


                            Resignation of the South Carolina Delegation

                            The Speaker laid before the House on the 24th, a letter signed by Messrs. M'Queen, Bonham, Boyce, and Ashmore, of South Carolina, as follows:

                            SIR,- We avail ourselves of the earliest opportunity since the official communication of the intelligence, of making known to your honorable body that the people of the State of South Carolina, in their sovereign capacity, have resumed the powers heretofore delegated by them to the Federal Government of the United States, and have thereby dissolved our connection with the House of Representatives. In taking leave of those with whom we have been associated in a common agency, we, as well as the people of our Commonwealth, desire to do so with a feeling of mutual regard and respect for each other- cherishing the hope that, in our future relations, we may better enjoy that peace and harmony essential to the happiness of a free and enlightened people.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Thank you for noting the details where the Battle flag is on the second and third official flags of the Confederate States of America.
                              Yeah, too bad that you said the battle flag was a part of every confederate flag bar one, not every official confederate flag bar one. That sure is some major league backpeddling.

                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Yes, the battle flag is the most prominent symbol of succession, rebellion of the Confederacy, which seceded primarily for the reason of preserving the institution of slavery the principle economic capital of the South.
                              Which is absolutely and unremittingly false.

                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Please note that blue flag with the white star was always flown as a companion of the official battle flag of the Confederacy.
                              You mean the Bonnie Blue? Which was used by the state of Mississippi when it first seceded because it was the official flag of the short-lived republic of West Florida, part of which was in Mississippi's borders?

                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              The other flags are local used flags for special purposes, and units of the Confederacy, of which there are many more, and NOT official flags of the Confederacy.
                              That's not true at all. The Bonnie Blue was used by the state of Mississippi as was the Van Dorn battle flag:
                              220px-The_Van_Dorn_Flag (1).png


                              This flag was used by South Carolina as a symbol of its secession and sovereignty:
                              South_Carolina_Sovereignty-Secession_Flag.svg (1).jpg

                              But none of that really matters since all you are doing is backpeddling.
                              Last edited by Rational Gaze; 07-01-2015, 01:55 PM.
                              My Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/-/e/B0719RS8BK

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                So, the secession was not a declaration of war. Between December 20 (not the 24th) and April 12, the sovereign state of South Carolina was not at war with the North over slavery. It was not until Lincoln realized that the South's secession was dangerous that he declared war, not against the South's slavery, but against their secession from the union.

                                So PLEASE stop with that lie.
                                What lie?!?!?!

                                No lie here the facts are facts of history. Slavery was the motivation for the South starting the war of secession. The Union declared war to preserve the Union in response to Southern aggression.

                                The South secesseded from the Union and attacked the Union based on the preservation of slavery as in institution of economic capital.

                                The Union declared war at that time, because the Confederacy attacked the Union. The Union did not recognize the Declarations od Secession by the Southern States, but war did not start until the South attacked the Union. Lincoln knew that war was inevitable, because of the secession, but used restraint until the South attacked the Union at Fort Sumter.



                                Source: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html



                                In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

                                Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-01-2015, 03:44 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                142 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                381 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                112 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                364 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X