Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

[shunyadragon]

Clearly there are stupid people. For the benefit of those who genuinely don't know and wish to learn:

The first flag of my avatar is the Stars and Bars or the First National Flag of the Confederate States of America. The Seven Circular Stars Represent the Seven States which Seceeded from the Union in 1861. However Later Flags were adopted. This flag is lesser known to most people.

The Second Flag is Actually the Rectangular Battle Flag of the Tennessee Army. Its often called the "Southern Cross" The Smaller Square Flag was carried by Lee's Army in Virginia Only in the 1920's was it carried by the second organization of the Ku Klux Klan and adopted as a symbol of segregation in the 1960's and terrorism.

Clearly you are omitting certain details, the second flag, called the 'stainless banner,' became the National Flag of the Confederate States of America on May 1, 1863. Regardless of when and where it was flown it, whether Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis in Richmond Virginia, it represents the symbol of succession and rebellion against Union, and a failed nation that supported the economic capital of slavery.

In this case ignorance by omission is not bliss.

[Teallaura]

Your question is boring, because the context is more or less known to anyone who grew up in the states and took history classes at a public school.

Your question is pedantic if you think any extra clarification on the context makes those flags any less of a symbol of slavery

Your question is pointless, since we've had the better part of 2 centuries since the flags creation to have other things done with it (and outside the dukes of hazard, none of its exactly good)

Translation: I don't have to listen to you because my opinion is the only one that matters.

[Teallaura]

Clearly you are omitting certain details, the second flag, called the 'stainless banner,' became the National Flag of the Confederate States of America on May 1, 1863. Regardless of when and where it was flown it, whether Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis in Richmond Virginia, it represents the symbol of succession and rebellion against Union, and a failed nation that supported the economic capital of slavery.

In this case ignorance by omission is not bliss.

It never flew as a flag of the confederacy. Sheesh, even Wiki gets this right.... It is based on the battle flag - which was incorporated in two of the three flags of the confederacy but was never itself a confederate flag.

Southerners use is as a symbol of Southern pride and history - and, as demonstrated earlier, even some African Americans have embraced it. You don't get to tell us what it means or why we are displaying it - you only get to say what it means to you.

[shunyadragon]

It never flew as a flag of the confederacy. Sheesh, even Wiki gets this right.... It is based on the battle flag - which was incorporated in two of the three flags of the confederacy but was never itself a confederate flag.

Southerners use is as a symbol of Southern pride and history - and, as demonstrated earlier, even some African Americans have embraced it. You don't get to tell us what it means or why we are displaying it - you only get to say what it means to you.

Your incorrect. If you make such claims, please provide sources. These flags are available for purchase if you wish to fly the flag.

'Even some' African Americans? This does little to justify the flag. Can you document how many?!?!!?

Source: http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

The Confederate Battle Flag. The best-known Confederate flag, however, was the Battle Flag, the familiar "Southern Cross". It was carried by Confederate troops in the field which were the vast majority of forces under the confederacy.
The Stars represented the 11 states actually in the Confederacy plus Kentucky and Missouri.

The second Official Flag of the Confederacy. On May 1st,1863, a second design was adopted, placing the Battle Flag (also known as the "Southern Cross") as the canton on a white field. This flag was easily mistaken for a white flag of surrender especially when the air was calm and the flag hung limply.

The flag now had 13 stars having been joined officially by four more states, Virginia (April 17, 1861), Arkansas (May 6, 1861), Tennessee (May 7, 1861), North Carolina (May 21, 1861). Efforts to secede failed in Kentucky and Missouri though those states were represented by two of the stars.

The third Official Flag of the Confederacy.On March 4th,1865, a short time before the collapse of the Confederacy, a third pattern was adapted; a broad bar of red was placed on the fly end of the white field.

Confederate Navy Jack: Used as a navy jack at sea from 1863 onward. This flag has become the generally recognized symbol of the South.

© Copyright Original Source

Both the 2nd and 3rd Official flags of the Confederate States of America contained the Confederate Battle Flag. The first, the 'stainless banner' had white background. The 3rd and last only flew in the last days and was called the 'blood stained banner,'

The basic battle flag was the dominant flag used by armies of the South, and the official Navy flag of the South. It remains the symbol of a failed nation found to preserve the institution of slavery as the main economic capital of the South.

[Catholicity]

Clearly you are omitting certain details, the second flag, called the 'stainless banner,' became the National Flag of the Confederate States of America on May 1, 1863. Regardless of when and where it was flown it, whether Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis in Richmond Virginia, it represents the symbol of succession and rebellion against Union, and a failed nation that supported the economic capital of slavery.

In this case ignorance by omission is not bliss.

No The Stainless Banner is A Flag that looks like this

4485-004-A5A7132B.jpg

And was the 2nd National Flag of the Confederacy. However when it was flown it looked like the white flag of surrender. So instead it was changed to include a red stripe at the end of the flag.

Know History Shuny.

[Catholicity]

Clearly you are omitting certain details, the second flag, called the 'stainless banner,' became the National Flag of the Confederate States of America on May 1, 1863. Regardless of when and where it was flown it, whether Robert E. Lee or Jefferson Davis in Richmond Virginia, it represents the symbol of succession and rebellion against Union, and a failed nation that supported the economic capital of slavery.

In this case ignorance by omission is not bliss.

I did not omit anything. you gave misinformation about the second flag of my avatar. Research flags of the confederacy. And be willing to admit where you are wrong preferably.

[rogue06]

Which is ironically comical because the very first slave owner in the New World was a black man named Anthony Johnson in Virginia. It was HIS lawsuit against John Casor that opened the door to legalized permanent slavery.

Source: http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

© Copyright Original Source

Sort of what happened in Liberia, a country established as a home for blacks wanting to return to Africa. In short order they started subjecting the local populace to forced labor and actively participated in the African slave trade, raiding their neighbors and selling them to visitors. IIRC, the slave trade was a significant part of their economy. Apparently it was due in large part to the British navy that the practice finally ended.

[JimL]

It never flew as a flag of the confederacy. Sheesh, even Wiki gets this right.... It is based on the battle flag - which was incorporated in two of the three flags of the confederacy but was never itself a confederate flag.

Southerners use is as a symbol of Southern pride and history - and, as demonstrated earlier, even some African Americans have embraced it. You don't get to tell us what it means or why we are displaying it - you only get to say what it means to you.

The Battle flag is symbolic of the southern fight to continue slavery, it was, at the beginning of the war, superimposed onto the white supremacist all white flag as symbolic of the white supremacist attitude in the south. After the war, the battle flag was never flown again in state Capitals as a symbol of southern pride, and so had no such symbolic meaning. It wasn't flown again in State Capitals until the 1950's when the then racist, white supremacist Gov. George C. Wallace had it raised in defiance of the court ordered desegragation. So the idea that it was ever flown in State capitals as a symbol of southern pride is a canard. If was the flag used in the souths fight to continue slavery, the flag was absent for nearly 90 years after the war, until it was then used as the symbol of the souths fight to continue segragation. So you people can rationalize it all you want, but it is what it is, and it never was what you are claiming it was.

[Teallaura]

Your incorrect. If you make such claims, please provide sources. These flags are available for purchase if you wish to fly the flag.

'Even some' African Americans? This does little to justify the flag. Can you document how many?!?!!?

Source: http://www.usflag.org/confederate.stars.and.bars.html

The Confederate Battle Flag. The best-known Confederate flag, however, was the Battle Flag, the familiar "Southern Cross". It was carried by Confederate troops in the field which were the vast majority of forces under the confederacy.
The Stars represented the 11 states actually in the Confederacy plus Kentucky and Missouri.

The second Official Flag of the Confederacy. On May 1st,1863, a second design was adopted, placing the Battle Flag (also known as the "Southern Cross") as the canton on a white field. This flag was easily mistaken for a white flag of surrender especially when the air was calm and the flag hung limply.

The flag now had 13 stars having been joined officially by four more states, Virginia (April 17, 1861), Arkansas (May 6, 1861), Tennessee (May 7, 1861), North Carolina (May 21, 1861). Efforts to secede failed in Kentucky and Missouri though those states were represented by two of the stars.

The third Official Flag of the Confederacy.On March 4th,1865, a short time before the collapse of the Confederacy, a third pattern was adapted; a broad bar of red was placed on the fly end of the white field.

Confederate Navy Jack: Used as a navy jack at sea from 1863 onward. This flag has become the generally recognized symbol of the South.

© Copyright Original Source

Both the 2nd and 3rd Official flags of the Confederate States of America contained the Confederate Battle Flag. The first, the 'stainless banner' had white background. The 3rd and last only flew in the last days and was called the 'blood stained banner,'

The basic battle flag was the dominant flag used by armies of the South, and the official Navy flag of the South. It remains the symbol of a failed nation found to preserve the institution of slavery as the main economic capital of the South.

Your source CONFIRMS what I said! You're confusing the battle flag (actually one of quite a number) with the confederate flag (of which there were three - two which incorporated the battle flag in part). Only the Tennessee regiment used a rectangular battle flag. It NEVER flew over Montgomery or Richmond as the confederate flag - period.

I grew up touring Archives and History - they have an extensive flag collection so yeah, I do know what the flags look like. Heck, even Wiki is better than you're doing...

[Teallaura]

The Battle flag is symbolic of the southern fight to continue slavery, it was, at the beginning of the war, superimposed onto the white supremacist all white flag as symbolic of the white supremacist attitude in the south. After the war, the battle flag was never flown again in state Capitals as a symbol of southern pride, and so had no such symbolic meaning. It wasn't flown again in State Capitals until the 1950's when the then racist, white supremacist Gov. George C. Wallace had it raised in defiance of the court ordered desegragation. So the idea that it was ever flown in State capitals as a symbol of southern pride is a canard. If was the flag used in the souths fight to continue slavery, the flag was absent for nearly 90 years after the war, until it was then used as the symbol of the souths fight to continue segragation. So you people can rationalize it all you want, but it is what it is, and it never was what you are claiming it was.

Nonsense - you have zero idea of what your talking about. Heck, you don't even have the CR history correct. Wallace stood in the school house door (U of A, actually) to oppose desegregation. Typical of Wallace, it was for show - he stood there, made his speech and then got out of the way.

I stated - correctly - that the battle flag never flew as the flag of the confederacy. It didn't. You're correct that the rectangular version first flew during the CR era - which I already noted earlier. But it's total nonsense that the battle flag represents the confederacy - it never did historically and didn't even in the CR era.

You don't get to tell us why we use the thing - or what it means to us. It stopped being about segregation a long time ago. You can see it however you like - but that doesn't mean anything about why we actually use it.

[JimL]

Nonsense - you have zero idea of what your talking about. Heck, you don't even have the CR history correct. Wallace stood in the school house door (U of A, actually) to oppose desegregation. Typical of Wallace, it was for show - he stood there, made his speech and then got out of the way.

Sounds like the same History I just put forth, so I must know what I'm talking about, accept for the fact that you are conveniently leaving out the part that on the school house door directly behind Gov. Wallance as he gave his speech in defiance of the court order to end desegragation, hung the confederate Battle flag. Also, if the flag was such a source of pride, why was it not flown at the state houses for 90 years after the war?

I stated - correctly - that the battle flag never flew as the flag of the confederacy. It didn't. You're correct that the rectangular version first flew during the CR era - which I already noted earlier. But it's total nonsense that the battle flag represents the confederacy - it never did historically and didn't even in the CR era.

Nope, you are wrong. The battle flag was superimposed onto the white supremist state flag making it one and the same flag, symbolic of one and the same thing.

You don't get to tell us why we use the thing - or what it means to us. It stopped being about segregation a long time ago. You can see it however you like - but that doesn't mean anything about why we actually use it.

It is not me telling you, it is what it is. The flag may mean something different to you now, but it means the same thing now as it did then to the people who were enslaved by the states whose banner it was, and who beneath it fought to keep them in slavery. Just because you feel differently about the flag now, just because it carries a different meaning for you now, doesn't change what it was actually created as representative of. Even if you've adopted for yourselves a new meaning for the flag, you should be ashamed of flying it from the state capital when you know how offensive it is to black people to whom its original meaning will never change.

[Jaecp]

That the flag is just a confederate flag, and not the confederate flag, is still irrelevant

[shunyadragon]

I did not omit anything. you gave misinformation about the second flag of my avatar. Research flags of the confederacy. And be willing to admit where you are wrong preferably.

No you did omit, by saying 'other flags' and not acknowledging the fact that the Battle flag is prominently on the 2nd and the 3rd flag of the Confederate States of America. You playing a dodge on details. Actually, because the second flag resembled a surrender flag the actual battle flag was the preferred flag by many in the Confederacy. All this round and round Robin Hood's barn discussion is not particularly meaningful, because the battle flag remains a prominent symbol of secession, rebellion of a failed nation found on slavery as the main economic capital. The Duck, Bob and Weave act gets you nothing.

[shunyadragon]

Nonsense - you have zero idea of what your talking about. Heck, you don't even have the CR history correct. Wallace stood in the school house door (U of A, actually) to oppose desegregation. Typical of Wallace, it was for show - he stood there, made his speech and then got out of the way.

I stated - correctly - that the battle flag never flew as the flag of the confederacy. It didn't. You're correct that the rectangular version first flew during the CR era - which I already noted earlier. But it's total nonsense that the battle flag represents the confederacy - it never did historically and didn't even in the CR era.

You don't get to tell us why we use the thing - or what it means to us. It stopped being about segregation a long time ago. You can see it however you like - but that doesn't mean anything about why we actually use it.

The battle flag was on the 2nd and 3rd flags of the Confederacy. It is a fact that being on these two flags it indeed represented the Confederacy. It was also the battle flag through out the war and the official Navy flag

[Tassman]

Which is ironically comical because the very first slave owner in the New World was a black man named Anthony Johnson in Virginia. It was HIS lawsuit against John Casor that opened the door to legalized permanent slavery.

Source: http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

According to federal census reports, on June 1, 1860 there were nearly 4.5 million Negroes in the United States, with fewer than four million of them living in the southern slaveholding states. Of the blacks residing in the South, 261,988 were not slaves. Of this number, 10,689 lived in New Orleans. The country's leading African American historian, Duke University professor John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negroes in that city.

To return to the census figures quoted above, this 28 percent is certainly impressive when compared to less than 1.4 percent of all American whites and less than 4.8 percent of southern whites. The statistics show that, when free, blacks disproportionately became slave masters.

© Copyright Original Source

So your argument is that the blacks were just as bad as the whites were, correct? That doesn't make it right. So why would you want to commemorate such an evil practise by retaining the flag that symbolises it?

But I'd bet you are just peachy with people burning the US flag...

Not at all! The US flag doesn't stand for the battle to retain slavery as does Federation flag and its various incarnations…despite the tortuous rationalizations for its retention that we’re getting from some.