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Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

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  • Originally posted by seanD View Post
    Rachel Dolezal?
    Unless I've missed or forgotten something, my understanding of that case is that a white woman spent a lot of time around black people and was so driven to promote understanding of them that she lied and passed herself off as a black woman for her words to gain greater authority. But that's not what I had in mind by my question.


    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    http://twitchy.com/2015/06/23/racist...-black-church/

    Lots of examples there. Language warning.
    Okay. And based on what I've read, here's their reasoning for why they dislike the usage of the phrase "All Lives Matter." Some black people have come to believe that there's an injustice in the justice system, and things are skewed against their race. For instance, they note that Michael Brown, who was unarmed and didn't murder anyone, was shot and killed by a policeman, whereas James Holmes, who was armed with a gun and actually DID murder multiple people, was brought in alive by the police. Or that black people who were believed to have committed murder of white people would be given a trial, whereas the white people who were believed to have committed murder of black people didn't get a trial. This perceived disparity in treatment along racial lines leads some to feel that society values white lives, but not black lives. So the declaration "Black Lives Matter" is a demand that society treat black lives with as much respect as it accords to white lives. That is to say, they perceive that there's no doubt that white lives DO matter, while there is doubt that black lives matter in the eyes of society.

    So when someone says "All Lives Matter," the statement is perceived as brushing over the specific pain that black people report feeling in a situation. It's as if a teacher calls on everyone in a classroom except for one student, and that student finally stands up one day and says "Hey, my voice should be heard too," only for the teacher to respond "Everyone's voice should be heard"--everyone else's voice is already heard; there's no need to point out something that in principle is obviously true but in practice is false. Our hypothetical student might understandably feel ignored, since the very reason she insisted that her voice should be heard is that the teacher wasn't allowing her voice to be heard. And wouldn't that feel like a double slap--in the student's effort to make her voice heard, the teacher basically didn't bother hearing her voice? The same applies to members of the Black Lives Matter movement.

    Now, I don't believe that Hilary Clinton meant anything hurtful by her remarks, so I believe that those people in the link were overreacting. But being offended because you misinterpreted something isn't remotely the same as TRYING to find something by which to feel offended.
    Last edited by fm93; 06-23-2015, 07:45 PM.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

    Comment


    • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Not harmless but those weren't the arguments being presented. DE was specifically arguing they should be dispensed with because of racism in decades past, not on the basis of abortion. Or, in other words, trolling.
      I tend to agree with DE's take on that - and it's arguably still a valid point. The policies designed to 'help' (AA, welfare, et al) have done considerable harm. Innocently, maybe, maybe not - it is a valid inquiry given the Democratic party's roots.

      Or we could just stop making everything into a ruckus.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Which is extremely unlikely for anyone to do heroically or not.

        And yeah I know you were kidding. At least I hope you were. You were kidding weren't ya?
        Heck yeah, I'm kidding! I was the one who had to comfort your mom after she got the dental bill from you and CP playing 'war'.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
          Now, I don't believe that Hilary Clinton meant anything hurtful by her remarks, so I believe that those people in the link were overreacting. But being offended because you misinterpreted something isn't remotely the same as TRYING to find something by which to feel offended.
          They KNOW she didn't mean anything bad, they are raging because they enjoy being pretend victims. The only alternative is that they have the IQ of an amoeba. Hillary is as much of a racial demagogue as any of them, having taken to blaming Donald Trump and Rush Limbaugh for the recent shooting. She's one of theirs. Honestly interpreting the statement as offensive is beyond the limits of the plausible.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
            Unless I've missed or forgotten something, my understanding of that case is that a white woman spent a lot of time around black people and was so driven to promote understanding of them that she lied and passed herself off as a black woman for her words to gain greater authority. But that's not what I had in mind by my question.
            Yeah you missed something. And she's not the only one to fake hate mail, fake assault reports, fake swastikas on their dorm room, etc.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              But you can't heroically yank the pin with your teeth!
              Yeah, you sure don't want to tap the potato masher on your teeth.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • With all the recent talk about the Confederate flag I might as well throw this into the mix -- especially if Hilary Clinton becomes the Democrat Party's presidential nominee.

                A couple campaign buttons from the Clinton-Gore campaign in 1992:



                And from Hilary's 2008 presidential campaign:




                To be fair there is no evidence that these buttons were manufactured and distributed by the campaigns themselves nor is there any evidence that anyone was ever told that the campaigns disapproved of them either.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I'm conflicted on this.

                  I'm inclined to agree that the Confederate Flag on the grounds of the South Carolina Capitol should be lowered for good. But I think this is probably (in my own situation) in sympathy to the incredibly graceful way in which the members and friends of Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church have responded to the violence visited upon them by a hateful young racist.

                  On the other hand, I think it's ridiculous that Walmart has made an announcement that they are pulling anything Confederate Flag related. The Confederacy is part of our History. Texas even requires a college course (for those attending college) on US History which includes a thorough treatment of the War of Northern Aggression.
                  You must mean a thoroughly false and propagandized treatment of history if Down thar in Texas y'all call it the war of Northern aggression CP. The war began when South Carolina attacked Fort Sumter. Why, did they do it? Because they didn't like the idea of the federal government lording it over them, making laws regarding slavery. Yeah, that S. Carolina. The flag is symbolic of slavery, white supremacy, and segregation, the Klan, and Lynchings etc etc.. In the 1960's, during the civil rights movement, the S Carolina congress made it law that the flag was never to be lowered with the acception of need to repair or replace. Why? It was symbolic of white supremacy and their right to segregate, to keep blacks in their place. To paraphrase Strom Thurmond at the time " we will never allow them in our theaters, in our diners, in our schools, in our houses of worship etc etc."
                  "We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer" -- how is that even possible? How is it possible to "never offend anyone"?
                  Walmart, they're just making a business decision, they don't really care if not selling the flag offends anyone or not, anymore than they cared when they were selling it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    But you can't heroically yank the pin with your teeth!
                    Yeah, you sure don't want to tap the potato masher on your teeth.
                    You could headbutt it.
                    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                    1 Corinthians 16:13

                    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                    -Ben Witherington III

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                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      With all the recent talk about the Confederate flag I might as well throw this into the mix -- especially if Hilary Clinton becomes the Democrat Party's presidential nominee.

                      A couple campaign buttons from the Clinton-Gore campaign in 1992:

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]7510[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7511[/ATTACH]


                      And from Hilary's 2008 presidential campaign:

                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]7512[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7513[/ATTACH]



                      To be fair there is no evidence that these buttons were manufactured and distributed by the campaigns themselves nor is there any evidence that anyone was ever told that the campaigns disapproved of them either.
                      As someone who has worked at a small town Democratic office, it's quite likely that, for any given candidate, they have no idea what the random local Dem offices do for extra campaign swag. Especially that godawful one with Clinton and Gore's faces on it. No way thats an official campaign button. It's hideous and overly busy.

                      Like, we have this one volunteer who just, like, absolutely adores our button maker so she comes in and just... makes random buttons. For any sort of left aligned thing and just leaves them in a bowl. Some of them are good, others are hilarious bad, but she is passionate so we let her do it.

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                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I honestly don't understand how this concept is alien to you. This is satire, but I think it gets the point across pretty well. http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008...eing-offended/
                        What specific clues indicate to you that such people are being disingenous, rather than genuinely trying to raise awareness (although perhaps a bit overzealously in some cases)?

                        And really, more to the point...most of the time when I see someone use the "some people are just looking to be offended" line, I only need to look into the issue briefly to see that the person hasn't made any effort to understand WHY some people feel offended. It usually turns out that there is a perfectly understandable reason, and sometimes the person who uses that line has even expressed offense regarding a different issue for similar reasons. So when I see that line, I tend to suspect that it's an indication of dismissiveness.


                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        That's just nuts. Why do you think they'd ask for prayer if they don't believe it will "do anything"?
                        Because they want to feel good. They're all about feeling good.

                        At the very least, they know, when you pray for them, that you are concerned, and feel comforted knowing that.
                        You might just be doing it to make yourself feel good.




                        Sorry. I didn't intend to sound as annoyingly and incurably presumptuous as you sometimes act when you're trying to argue about politics. I just couldn't resist the opportunity there. You see how blatantly irrational you appear when you simply dismiss anyone who politically disagrees with you as "only being about feeling good?" It obscures proper discussion of the issues. It might be less annoying if you could somehow provide solid evidence that your political dissenters actually were driven primarily by a self-centered desire for good feelings (or that their motivation somehow made their conclusions wrong), but you never do that. You're hardly ever serious when people who obviously are genuinely trying to have a serious political discussion with you ask you a serious question to which they obviously expect a serious answer. You're just flippant and condescending. Or sometimes you start off on a serious note, but then turn insulting when the other person clearly is still politely asking questions and raising points in a serious manner.

                        Anyhow. Obviously the person requesting a prayer believes that God might ultimately answer the prayer positively, but that's clearly not what I meant by "the prayer itself does nothing." God is the one who actually does the things, answering the prayer through some human agent who directly impacts the requester. The person saying the prayer isn't directly impacting the recipient.

                        Are you really this clueless?
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                          As someone who has worked at a small town Democratic office, it's quite likely that, for any given candidate, they have no idea what the random local Dem offices do for extra campaign swag. Especially that godawful one with Clinton and Gore's faces on it. No way thats an official campaign button. It's hideous and overly busy.

                          Like, we have this one volunteer who just, like, absolutely adores our button maker so she comes in and just... makes random buttons. For any sort of left aligned thing and just leaves them in a bowl. Some of them are good, others are hilarious bad, but she is passionate so we let her do it.
                          Clintons may be able to blame the buttons on aides but they'll have a hard time explaining why they commemorated the Confederacy on the Arkansas flag:

                          ftp://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/acts/1987/Public/116.pdf

                          Like with gay marriage, a position democrats enthusiastically supported yesterday is anathema today and anyone who doesn't agree is a monster.
                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                            It's a shameful part of our history, one that no one ought to ever proudly display or celebrate. The same applies for Germany and the sale of pro-Nazi paraphernalia.
                            Those who don't remember our history are doomed to repeat it.


                            That's an odd question. The default nature of things is to not be hurtful to people. Things have to become offensive by taking on a hurtful meaning. So to not offend anyone, you find something that hasn't taken on a hurtful meaning to anyone.
                            and who determines who gets "hurt" and what constitutes "hurt?" You? Obama? Liberals?


                            It's not just because many black people report that it's hurtful and offensive. It's also because (well, it SHOULD be because--I doubt this was Walmart's specific line of reasoning) many of the people who use the symbol have done so out of conscious hatred for others.
                            Kind of like the way the KKK and the Christian Identity movement uses the cross out of conscious hate of others, right? So we should ban the use of crosses.



                            The same applies to telling other people "I'll pray for you." But I don't see the Prayer Requests section going defunct any time soon.
                            Why would it go defunct? There is always something to pray for and God is not a genie or vending machine. Prayer works when it is according to his will, not ours.


                            So, you think that banning Confederate symbols is a good thing, right? What about those that ban hurts? Like collectors, history buffs, people who identify with the Confederate flag not as racist, but as Southern? You don't care about hurting them, do you?

                            Saw this on facebook :-)

                            "So, can we force liberal bakers to make Confederate flag cakes?"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                              Before Walmart removes their confederate Flag. They need to get rid of sweatshops, switch to all fair trade merchandise, and follow the liberal ideal of raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour first. Also all employees should have equal access to benefits.

                              (FYI I am anti sweatshop and outsourcing)
                              And stop buying stuff made in communist China. It really irks me to see American flags for sale at places like that which say "Made in China"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Are you being serious here? You seriously don't know people who look for excuses to be offended, and hurt? You've never come across that in your entire life, ever? Really? That seems extremely unlikely to me.
                                That is because fm93 IS one of them. Everything ends up being about racism and sexism with him.

                                Comment

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