Another Christian Being Offered On The PC Alter?

[seer]

Not angry. It just seems that way perhaps in writing. You said, "I define justice as...." which means it is your opinion unless you can show a logical basis for it. The Muslim defines justice as.....whatever they think their god wants. That's not a good standard. Take for example you saying this...

But if eternal conscious suffering was the case that would be just.

But if eternal conscious suffering wasn't the case that would be just.

But if universalism was the case that would be just.

But if annihilationism was the case that would be just.

All these things would be just if it was the case because to you whatever god does is just, even though the outcome is totally different. I know the basic views on Christianity, so I will ignore most of your assertions about them since they are backed up by zero good evidence.

The point here Thinker is two fold. One, it is God that defines justice, since by His very nature He is just. Which means, even is I don't always understand or even when I get moral questions wrong, we still live in a moral and just universe. You live in an unjust and amoral universe.

Would that be objectively true even if god didn't exist and all things being equal?

That was not the point, I was answering a specific objection you raised. Try and stay on task.

If god must compromise his moral standards to accommodate the society he reveals himself in, then would god have done the same thing if childhood prostitution was a near-universal institution and the economy of all ancient societies depended on it?

Yes God allows us to sin, lucky for you that He does.

You didn't address the dilemma. Slavery is "bad" as you admit, and yet your god is perfect and your universe is just. But compromising morality keeps the universe unjust and is not compatible with perfection. How could a perfect god be a moral compromiser? That's logically incoherent. Please explain

.

You mean how can God allow freedom of the will?

And if you think slavery is wrong today, you my friend think morality is relative and cultural.

Don't try and turn it around. If you were born white in the antebellum South is it likely that you would have thought slavery to be immoral?

[seer]

Well if I asked Jesus, "Why is it morally bad to cause unnecessary suffering?" what do you think he would say?

I'm asking you Thinker. On what basis is this opinion objective? How is it objective?

[lilpixieofterror]

Plus, like, that whole "ITS NOT IN THE DSM" argument would be super topical if there was some prominent wing of the gay rights movement that actually, you know, claimed it was a pathology and that homophobia wasn't just shorthand.

Irony at it's finest.

[lilpixieofterror]

Well that one goes without saying.

And just for the record, whenever I read one of you guys raving about abortion, I just substitute in "I hate abortion! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!" in my head as I skim your post. I live in a country where there's no public controversy about abortion and hasn't been for decades, so I find all you people's utter obsession with the topic quite idiosyncratic and hilarious.

Really? There is no public controversy, about abortion, in New Zealand? You must be living under a rock because I found this stuff, within 10 minutes:

Auckland, New Zealand

“The majority of the time we will not know the fruit of our prayer or work to promote and save lives,” said one of the leaders in Auckland. But occasionally, God will reveal His blessings.

A woman approached the prayer team outside the abortion center. They recognized her. At last year’s 40 Days for Life vigil, she was one of the most vocal opponents.

“But here’s the thing,” said the 40 Days for Life team member. “Our presence affected her so much that she realised she needed healing!”

They learned that her vocal abuse was a manifestation of the deep hurt she experienced after being forced to abort three children. Finally, this mother went to God in prayer. Today she is praying for the 40 Days for Life effort, with plans to join the vigil if she is able.

“From vocal abuser … to healing … to praying in solidarity with us,” the volunteer said. “God is so good!”
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/03/25/a...rtion-clinics/

That was from this year, I might add. Want another? Here is one from last year:

Prolife New Zealand is also concerned that the Green Party now appears to have aligned itself with the Abortion Law Reform Association of NZ (ALRANZ), the extremist abortion lobby group headed by American abortion activist Morgan Healey. For many years ALRANZ has been trying to have an extreme abortion law, which would result in abortion-up-to-birth, introduced in New Zealand.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE140...reen-party.htm

And from this year:

Lobby group Right to Life has gone to the High Court at Wellington seeking a declaration on what is required in facilities which carry out only medical rather than surgical abortions.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nation...ortion-clarity

From 2013, a commercial that aired, in your country:

So, the conclusion is, you're wrong and very wrong at that. Have you been living under a rock, all of these years, or do you not spend much time trying to understand your opponents and what they believe, so you assume that they do not exist because you don't like them? Also, if you can't even get current events, in your own country, correct; why should any of us believe you can get current events here in the US correct when it is clear that you don't even know what is going on in your own country?

[lilpixieofterror]

I find the killing of infants highly objectionable. I must be mentally impaired.

That is because you have a value for life, unlike Dimbulb.

[Starlight]

I'm curious, because I think I've seen you bring this up before, but, what do you think the 'curse of Ham' is?

It is a passage in Genesis in which Noah pronounces a curse on Canaan to serve his brothers. Presumably it was intended by the original writer to be a theological validation of the subsequent reality in which peoples who traced their lineage to Canaan were enslaved by peoples descended from his brothers. It was a passage widely used by Christians during the African slave-trade era, as they conveniently chose to equate African peoples with the descendants of Canaan. My point being that it is one of many biblical passages that Christians have historically used (or misused) to attempt to give a veneer of moral justification to atrocities they wanted to commit. Muslims use a similar mechanism today of anything they feel like attacking is labelled a 'jihad' and by implication is divinely approved.

[lilpixieofterror]

For Chrawnus and the other mentally impaired in these forums: In the 'progressive' system of morality which values sentient beings, fetuses & animals etc which are conscious but are significantly lacking higher mental functions, are assigned less moral value. There is no universal agreement over exactly how much less. This means people holding to this system inherently think that both eating meat, and abortion, involve a certain level of wrongdoing. However they may think that that small level of wrongdoing is acceptable or justifiable due to greater goods.

Yep, still trying to justify your disgusting ideology, eh? The fact that you compare the lives of children, with the lives of animals, should indicate how morally repugnant you are and why you should never be allowed around children, since you view their lives as disposable.

[lilpixieofterror]

It is a passage in Genesis in which Noah pronounces a curse on Canaan to serve his brothers. Presumably it was intended by the original writer to be a theological validation of the subsequent reality in which peoples who traced their lineage to Canaan were enslaved by peoples descended from his brothers. It was a passage widely used by Christians during the African slave-trade era, as they conveniently chose to equate African peoples with the descendants of Canaan. My point being that it is one of many biblical passages that Christians have historically used (or misused) to attempt to give a veneer of moral justification to atrocities they wanted to commit. Muslims use a similar mechanism today of anything they feel like attacking is labelled a 'jihad' and by implication is divinely approved.

A passage, also widely refuted and disputed, by Christians, in that era too (which your own link, actually brings up). Keep digging dimbulb and showing why everybody should point fingers and laugh at you, for your ignorance of long refuted theological garbage (hint, curses, in the ancient world, are not the same as the modern sense).

[Christianbookworm]

Yep, still trying to justify your disgusting ideology, eh? The fact that you compare the lives of children, with the lives of animals, should indicate how morally repugnant you are and why you should never be allowed around children, since you view their lives as disposable.

I really hope Jesus lectures him on that. Though, there are many people that I'd want Jesus to lecture. Especially those that hurt children or condone hurting them...

[lilpixieofterror]

I really hope Jesus lectures him on that. Though, there are many people that I'd want Jesus to lecture. Especially those that hurt children or condone hurting them...

To be fair, dimbulb isn't any different than any other group, in history, that makes justifications for doing what they want to do, to entire groups of people. The first step is to dehumanize them and make comparisons between them and animals. Kind of like what the slavers did to the Africans back during the slavery era. Comparisons between them and animals were commonly drawn, just as Dimbulb tries to draw comparisons between animals and unborn/infants today. Sad thing is, this logic has been used over and over again to justify everything from killing Jews, to sterilizing the disabled, to murdering unborn babies by the millions. Just more of his disgusting ideology, displayed before all.

[Christianbookworm]

To be fair, dimbulb isn't any different than any other group, in history, that makes justifications for doing what they want to do, to entire groups of people. The first step is to dehumanize them and make comparisons between them and animals. Kind of like what the slavers did to the Africans back during the slavery era. Comparisons between them and animals were commonly drawn, just as Dimbulb tries to draw comparisons between animals and unborn/infants today. Sad thing is, this logic has been used over and over again to justify everything from killing Jews, to sterilizing the disabled, to murdering unborn babies by the millions. Just more of his disgusting ideology, displayed before all.

Well, then ALL of those people should be given a very stern lecture on how they are terrible humans who will be shamed for eternity! By Jesus, because being lectured by Him would not be fun.

[Starlight]

Really? There is no public controversy, about abortion, in New Zealand? You must be living under a rock because I found this stuff, within 10 minutes:

So a few extremists have a website and post 'press releases' that the press ignores... so what?

[lilpixieofterror]

So a few extremists have a website and post 'press releases' that the press ignores... so what?

Yep, anybody who dares to disagree with dumbulb is labeled as an 'extremist' as a way of trying to brush away his own stupid statement. Sorry sweety, you said:

"I live in a country where there's no public controversy about abortion and hasn't been for decades,"

That claim is 100% totally bogus and was easy to refute, at that. I think what really happens is that you don't pay close attention to your opponents or what they say and automatically reject everything they say and do and therefore make stupid mistakes, such as this. Again, if you can't even bother to get current events, in your own country, correct. Why should anybody believe you when you try to talk about a foreign country and it's current events? Anti abortion controversy is alive and well, in New Zealand, and the articles I cited and quoted proved that. Your claim is objectively wrong and claiming they are 'extremist' is just your way of refusing to admit you made a false claim. Besides, your Green Party is running on an pro abortion platform and your country has abortion advocates (again, one of the articles I cited makes that 100% clear). If abortion was not the issue, as you try to claim it is, why would they even need to bother to publicly bring it up since it would be a non issue? Please, you're wrong, just admit it and move on and stop trying to find ways to avoid admitting that you made a false statement.

[Christianbookworm]

Trust me, you do not want to end up in the Principal's "office".
Here's an example lecture which would have no force coming from a fellow human.
Shame on you,Stardim, for assuming that babies have the same level of rights as mere animals just because they are not fully developed! Shame on you for thinking it should be okay to murder young infants. They'll be okay, but that does not take from the fact that people like you are responsible for snuffing out their chances at living life and making free choices. You had an opportunity to make your choice, they didn't and it was the fault of you and others like you! Now they had no opportunity to help others and gain rewards. Shame on you for your wicked ideas! Depart into the darkness!

[Starlight]

Sorry sweety, you said:

"I live in a country where there's no public controversy about abortion and hasn't been for decades,"

That claim is 100% totally bogus and was easy to refute, at that.

I just had a browse of the wiki article about abortion here in NZ, and it's got this gem:
"In New Zealand today, abortion is not a major political issue.[citation needed]"