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A big "Whoops" moment if I've ever seen one.

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You seem to bypass the spiritual aspect in favor of the psychobabble. And don't claim you're not.

    Please show me where you have ever indicated the need for spiritual counsel.
    Why? I've acknowledged to Adrift that spiritual counseling may well be necessary for transsexual and transgendered persons. Since I don't find gender reassignment to be sinful, there's no need, in my mind, that the two are necessarily joined. If a strong Christian wants gender reassignment and that doesn't affect their Christian lifestyle, it's not really germane to the conversation we're having now, which is about the legitimacy of gender reassignment as a medical treatment for gender dysphoria.

    You're making relief of gender dysphoria through reconstructive surgery mutually exclusive with Christianity. I'm not. It's one you and others advocating your position, then, to explain why this isn't a medical issue or why reconstructive surgery is a spiritual transgression.
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      A whopping 41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly nine times the national average, according to a sweeping survey released three years ago.

      http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan...ender-20140127
      ...because of how hatefully and hurtfully society had behaved towards them, not because they regretted transitioning or reassignment.

      the risk of attempting suicide was especially severe for transgender or gender nonconforming people who had suffered discrimination or violence, such as being physically or sexually assaulted at work or school.

      Among transgender people who became homeless because of bias against their gender identity, 69% said they had tried to kill themselves. Out of those who had been turned away by a doctor because they were transgender or gender-nonconforming, 60% had attempted suicide sometime in their lives, the survey found.

      Nearly two-thirds of respondents who were the victims of domestic violence at the hands of a family member had attempted suicide, the study also showed. Suicide attempts were less common among transgender and gender-nonconforming people who said their family ties had remained strong after they came out.

      "This report punctuates what PFLAG families know is fundamental -- that there is life-saving merit, demonstrable value, and paramount need for family acceptance," said Diego Sanchez, policy director for PFLAG National, an organization for family, friends and supporters of LGBT people.



      Originally posted by Paprika View Post

      The focus was on the feels rather than any 'good' that can possibly be achieved
      The focus was on the very real struggles that transgender people have faced, living in a world in which some of them have been violently abused and/or killed.

      he fact that you think offensive and wrong are interchangeable reveals how far you have fallen.
      I'm not saying that it's wrong because it's offensive; I'm saying that it's offensive in this case BECAUSE it's wrong.
      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        You're making relief of gender dysphoria through reconstructive surgery mutually exclusive with Christianity.
        I'd really appreciate you not jacking around with my beliefs to fit your arguments. Actually, what I'm saying is that "reconstructive surgery" should be an absolute last resort. I'm not as convinced as you are that surgery is going to solve the problem, or that it won't create even bigger ones.

        And when I think of my wife's breast cancer, and my own "reconstructive surgeries", I find it a bit odd that attempting to turn a man into a woman would be called "reconstructive", since the definition USED to be "serving to rebuild, restore, or correct the appearance and function of defective, damaged, or misshaped body structures or parts". But, you no doubt will have an answer for that.

        I still think this is a spiritual problem to which you are advocating a surgical solution, but I'm not going to convince you otherwise, so I think I'll just leave it at that.

        I guess I'm just an old fart - this is creepy.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I'd really appreciate you not jacking around with my beliefs to fit your arguments. Actually, what I'm saying is that "reconstructive surgery" should be an absolute last resort. I'm not as convinced as you are that surgery is going to solve the problem, or that it won't create even bigger ones.

          And when I think of my wife's breast cancer, and my own "reconstructive surgeries", I find it a bit odd that attempting to turn a man into a woman would be called "reconstructive", since the definition USED to be "serving to rebuild, restore, or correct the appearance and function of defective, damaged, or misshaped body structures or parts". But, you no doubt will have an answer for that.

          I still think this is a spiritual problem to which you are advocating a surgical solution, but I'm not going to convince you otherwise, so I think I'll just leave it at that.

          I guess I'm just an old fart - this is creepy.
          You brought up the "What good is alleviating gender discomfort if they don't know Jesus?" tangent: I was just responding to the mutual exclusivity implied by that post. If we both agree that surgery is a legitimate therapy to mitigate gender dysphoria and that other factors, spiritual and psychological, are often involved, I'm not sure what you've been disagreeing with me about. I certainly haven't advocated going into gender reassignment lightly or haphazardly.

          If and when gender dysphoria is primarily a spiritual problem, it should be treated primarily through spiritual counseling. If and when gender dysphoria is a medical problem, it should be treated primarily through medical treatments. My position is that such a determination is left to the individual and professional therapists and that those folk should have every legitimate option available to alleviate suffering caused by the dysphoria.

          I suppose I'm a futurist and I see this as far less disconcerting than cyborgs ... and I really have no problem with cyborgs.
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Sam View Post
            You brought up the "What good is alleviating gender discomfort if they don't know Jesus?" tangent:
            Yeah, Sam, because I don't consider it a "tangent" - I consider it the most important thing in the world, because it determines eternal destiny.

            I was just responding to the mutual exclusivity implied by that post.
            No, the mutual exclusivity you inferred from that post.

            If we both agree that surgery is a legitimate therapy to mitigate gender dysphoria and that other factors...
            We don't. You do. I'm not convinced.
            Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-08-2015, 05:02 PM.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Yeah, Sam, because I don't consider it a "tangent" - I consider it the most important thing in the world, because it determines eternal destiny.

              No, the mutual exclusivity you inferred from that post.
              Well, the alternative is that you were introducing a specious distinction so ...

              It is a tangent because it's irrelevant to the topic of discussion, which is the legitimacy of gender reassignment surgery. Just as if you started a post about how terrible the new 90% tax on wealth is to the economy and I replied by saying, "Why are you interested in this? Isn't Jesus more important?"

              You'd agree but probably note that the two topics aren't related and talking about the former doesn't imply anything about your priorities regarding the latter.


              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              We don't. You do. I'm not convinced.
              If you agree that it should be used as a last resort, you're agreeing that it is legitimate, even if it might prove not be beneficial to everyone or anyone. An illegitimate therapy (e.g., balancing the humours) should not be used, even as a last resort.
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                Well, the alternative is that you were introducing a specious distinction so ...

                It is a tangent because it's irrelevant to the topic of discussion, which is the legitimacy of gender reassignment surgery. Just as if you started a post about how terrible the new 90% tax on wealth is to the economy and I replied by saying, "Why are you interested in this? Isn't Jesus more important?"

                You'd agree but probably note that the two topics aren't related and talking about the former doesn't imply anything about your priorities regarding the latter.




                If you agree that it should be used as a last resort, you're agreeing that it is legitimate, even if it might prove not be beneficial to everyone or anyone. An illegitimate therapy (e.g., balancing the humours) should not be used, even as a last resort.
                Wow. This goofy.

                And I want to get into that.

                But Mrs CP wants to meet me for supper, and that takes priority by a factor of a guhzillion.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  This is bordering on incoherent. On the one hand, you try to equate antiquated methods with little or no foundation in medicine with modern methods of psychological diagnosis, essentially arguing that modern psychology is in the same state as 18th-century or 19th-century medicine.
                  Well I am so sorry you have trouble understanding what I wrote. Funny not everyone did???

                  Fact is every part of the modern technology is in exactly the same state as 18th century medicine. That state is being limited to what we think we know now. Many things in 18th century medicine have been superseded. What we think we know today may well be superseded by future discoveries. My point was (and some seem to have gotten it) that sexual reassignment surgery seems to have moved past what we have already learned. That is; in the near term folks who so mutilate their bodies are happy with the results. Several years down the line they seem to be less happy with it.

                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  Then you go on to protest that the "so-called science is just wrong" but that you're not arguing that psychology, in general, "is about promoting stupid stuff." So either psychology is promoting "so-called science" that is "just wrong" (AKA "promoting stupid stuff") or it's just promoting "stupid stuff" when you disagree with the legitimacy of the diagnoses.
                  The very soft science of psychology is often wrong. That does not mean it is purposely promoting stupid stuff. The stuff it is promoting is stupid because we already have the evidence that it is not helpful in the long term. Psychology has been perverted by political correctness - as I have pointed out before.


                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  In any event, there's no thread of a discernible method with which one could separate out a legitimate psychological issue from a "so-called" psychological issue from your posts. If you want to dismiss gender dysphoria as a legitimate psychological issue or dismiss gender reassignment as a legitimate treatment, you've got to bring more to the table than personal disapproval.
                  Answered above.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Wow. This goofy.

                    And I want to get into that.

                    But Mrs CP wants to meet me for supper, and that takes priority by a factor of a guhzillion.
                    CP, I think it's pointless to continue to debate Sam on this subject. Sam is starting from an entirely different framework. A framework that sees this primarily as a biological issue, not a spiritual one. He's kinda sorta suggested that's not the case, that he's okay with it possibly being a spiritual issue, to some small degree, in some cases, but everything he's posted here makes it sound like he believes it's mostly just biology. That's my take away anyways, and if his actual view is radically different, he hasn't expressed it very well.

                    But it really is primarily a spiritual issue. When your identity is so distorted, so out of whack that you are convinced that your only hope of escape is to radically alter and maim the body, the temple, that God gave you, then there's something far more sinister going on.

                    Our war is a spiritual one, not one of flesh and blood. In Mark 9 we read about the boy possessed by an unclean spirit who cried out night and day, who bruised himself, and slashed himself with sharp rocks. Both Ben Witherington III and William L. Lane (not to be confused with William Lane Craig) point out in their commentaries on this passage that the reason for his animalistic behavior is because the enemy's purpose is to "distort and destroy the image of God in a person".

                    Now, I'm not suggesting that people who seek sexual reassignment are possessed necessarily, but there is certainly something demonic in the air when one's identity, one's very image, is so twisted, you can't even recognize yourself in your own body anymore.

                    Witherington states in his book The Paul Quest,

                    Source: The Paul Quest: The Renewed Search for the Jew of Tarsus by Ben Witherington III

                    Unlike ethnic difference, such as that between Gentile or Jew, or social differences, like that between slave and free, only gender differences are mentioned in the creation narrative as connected to, grounded in and definitive of the image of God (Gen 1:27). In Paul's view sexual differences, unlike these other differences, do not result from human fallenness but are a part of God's original good plan for humankind. Thus while the image of God as male and female needs to be renewed in Christ, it should not be replaced or obliterated by some sort of androgynous identity.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    The thief comes to kill, steal, and destroy, Christ is come so that we may have life, and have it more abundantly. The person who is struggling with their sexual identity is looking for surgery to change the outside, when it is Christ they need to change the inside.

                    But, you know, Sam can't see any of this. It's a mind block for him. I don't know if he's being deceived by the enemy or what, but, CP, that's why he sees your suggestion, that Christ is needed, as tangential. It simply does not occur to him that Christ is the primary answer here.

                    And you know, I'm not trying to knock Sam. I love him as my brother in Christ. I think he has a humongous heart, but I also think that the enemy can take advantage of our empathy and sympathy for others, and manipulate us, so that we don't see what is really going on behind the curtain.
                    Last edited by Adrift; 06-08-2015, 09:11 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      CP, I think it's pointless to continue to debate Sam on this subject.
                      I agree - my wife's call to supper was a good break - I realized I really don't care to discuss this anymore.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        But, you know, Sam can't see any of this. It's a mind block for him. I don't know if he's being deceived by the enemy or what, but, CP, that's why he sees your suggestion that Christ is who they need as tangential. It simply does not occur to him that Christ may be the answer that is needed.
                        It's that "Christ shaped hole" thing.

                        “What else does this craving, and this helplessness, proclaim but that there was once in man a true happiness, of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace? This he tries in vain to fill with everything around him, seeking in things that are not there the help he cannot find in those that are, though none can help, since this infinite abyss can be filled only with an infinite and unchangeable object; in other words by God himself.” (Pensees 10.148) Blaise Pascal (1623-62)
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          CP, I think it's pointless to continue to debate Sam on this subject. Sam is starting from an entirely different framework. A framework that sees this primarily as a biological issue, not a spiritual one. He's kinda sorta suggested that's not the case, that he's okay with it possibly being a spiritual issue, to some small degree, in some cases, but everything he's posted here makes it sound like he believes it's mostly just biology. That's my take away anyways, and if his actual view is radically different, he hasn't expressed it very well.

                          But it really is primarily a spiritual issue. When your identity is so distorted, so out of whack that you are convinced that your only hope of escape is to radically alter and maim the body, the temple, that God gave you, then there's something far more sinister going on.

                          Our war is a spiritual one, not one of flesh and blood. In Mark 9 we read about the boy possessed by an unclean spirit who cried out night and day, who bruised himself, and slashed himself with sharp rocks. Both Ben Witherington III and William L. Lane (not to be confused with William Lane Craig) point out in their commentaries on this passage that the reason for his behavior is because the enemy's purpose is to "distort and destroy the image of God in a person".

                          Now, I'm not suggesting that people who seek sexual reassignment are possessed necessarily, but there is certainly something demonic in the air when one's identity, one's very image, is so twisted, you can't even recognize yourself in your own body anymore.

                          Witherington states in his book The Paul Quest,

                          Source: The Paul Quest: The Renewed Search for the Jew of Tarsus by Ben Witherington III

                          Unlike ethnic difference, such as that between Gentile or Jew, or social differences, like that between slave and free, only gender differences are mentioned in the creation narrative as connected to, grounded in and definitive of the image of God (Gen 1:27). In Paul's view sexual differences, unlike these other differences, do not result from human fallenness but are a part of God's original good plan for humankind. Thus while the image of God as male and female needs to be renewed in Christ, it should not be replaced or obliterated by some sort of androgynous identity.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          The thief comes to kill, steal, and destroy, Christ is come so that we may have life, and have it more abundantly. The person who is struggling with their sexual identity is looking for surgery to change the outside, when it is Christ they need to change the inside.

                          But, you know, Sam can't see any of this. It's a mind block for him. I don't know if he's being deceived by the enemy or what, but, CP, that's why he sees your suggestion, that Christ is needed, as tangential. It simply does not occur to him that Christ is the primary answer here.

                          And you know, I'm not trying to knock Sam. I love him as my brother in Christ. I think he has a humongous heart, but I also think that the enemy can take advantage of our empathy and sympathy for others, and manipulate us, so that we don't see what is really going on behind the curtain.

                          I largely agree with your take of our respective views, with the correction that the addition of "small" to the phrase "to some small degree" is unnecessary. I'm not positing that there's any default ratio of spiritual:material causes so I'm quite open to some cases of gender identity being primarily spiritual in nature. But, as you say, not in all or even most cases.

                          Whether that constitutes a "mind block" or simply a disagreement in thought will probably have to be sorted out a long time from now. At the present, I don't see any compelling reason to believe that gender identity is necessarily a spiritual issue that must necessarily be treated primarily through spiritual means. But we can certainly agree to disagree with good will.
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            But we can certainly agree to disagree with good will.
                            Absolutely not!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Absolutely not!
                              Then our battle must be expressed through topical comic strips!

                              comic2-2846.jpg
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                Then our battle must be expressed through topical comic strips!

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]7087[/ATTACH]

                                Hmmmm... when I try to embiggen that, it blacks my screen. You're doing that on purpose, aren't you?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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