Originally posted by Sam
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A big "Whoops" moment if I've ever seen one.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostJust get a couple more Democrats in the White House and I'm sure we'll get gender reassignment surgery covered by that diabolical ACA yet.
Alcoholics diminish their own lives and often the lives of others around them in tangible ways. In other words, alcoholism has clear and real harms associated with it. Gender reassignment, on the other hand, could potentially save many lives. It's certainly helped many people's quality of life, if we go by their own assessments.
It's funny (in a fashion) how this board always seems hung up on sins like homosexuality and transgenderism and the like ... things that, even if they were sinful, cause others much less harm than more ubiquitous sins like avarice or illicit violence. What I'm sayin' is that I suppose I can't take criticisms of being a transgender apologist seriously from folks who have been apologists for torture.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostDepending on what yardstick you use to measure harm. And I'm no apologist for torture.
And I agree; the "yardstick" one uses to measure harm can affect the conclusion ... that's a good reason, in my mind, to make sure one's yardstick has a solid empirical backing (or is at least open to broad rational critique)."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhat really saddens me is that Christians get caught up in all this psychobabble, and become evangelists for it, instead of the Power of God to change lives.
I had irreversible gender reassignment surgery in 1997 absolutely convinced I was a woman in a man's body. I anticipated living happily ever after, however I had persistent difficulties and fell into deep depression. I began reading the Bible, unsatisfied with superficial proclamations of diversity, inclusiveness,and tolerance. I happened upon King David's famous repentance Psalm 51 and discovered, like David, I could be forgiven for all my sins. I also learned God chastens those whom He loves and I was being guided to seek repentance, and faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. I knew identifying as a woman was not living in truth,and returned to my given names and birth gender without further surgery.
My victory has come by allowing the Lord in my heart,becoming God-focused instead of self-centered, and am thankful for my birth sex and many blessings. despite the consequences and challenges. God has led me to witness His truth and love, and I can testify: indeed, God's grace, mercy and truth do set one free.
God bless,
Robert JohnThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou'd have to discuss that with the apologist for torture, Sam.
Even buying the premise, it's very much a "plank" vs. "mote" experience."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostHere's a good example of God changing lives, even AFTER the disaster of "gender reassignment".
I had irreversible gender reassignment surgery in 1997 absolutely convinced I was a woman in a man's body. I anticipated living happily ever after, however I had persistent difficulties and fell into deep depression. I began reading the Bible, unsatisfied with superficial proclamations of diversity, inclusiveness,and tolerance. I happened upon King David's famous repentance Psalm 51 and discovered, like David, I could be forgiven for all my sins. I also learned God chastens those whom He loves and I was being guided to seek repentance, and faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. I knew identifying as a woman was not living in truth,and returned to my given names and birth gender without further surgery.
My victory has come by allowing the Lord in my heart,becoming God-focused instead of self-centered, and am thankful for my birth sex and many blessings. despite the consequences and challenges. God has led me to witness His truth and love, and I can testify: indeed, God's grace, mercy and truth do set one free.
God bless,
Robert John
Emphasis added.
Realize that you're going to find a lot of people who have horrible experiences with virtually any endeavor, including religion. Using a few anecdotal examples as proof that gender reassignment harms more than it helps isn't going to work."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostPsychologists have long since understood that "gender" and "sex" are two separate things. Someone who gender-identifies as male but is physically female cannot really be said to "really be" female any more than they are "really male". This is an artifact of outside perception.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI had meant to direct that at you and, going back and reading the relevant thread, I have to apologize; I had inferred that you supported and defended "enhanced interrogation" techniques, which are torture, but that discussion ended with you denying that you supported torture but not wanting to get further into the distinction or argument.
I, however, am most certainly NOT an apologist for torture in any sense. Rather than rant at you, I'll accept your apology. (isn't this your second apology on this? )
So I'll just broaden my implication out a bit: I can't really take the criticism of wanting transgender individuals to suffer as little dysphoria as possible seriously when so many people on this board seem to err in the opposite direction on so many issues of consequence (e.g., healthcare, wealth, "enhanced interrogation", etc.).
Even buying the premise, it's very much a "plank" vs. "mote" experience.Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-07-2015, 11:00 PM.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostWell, as usual, I prefer larger datasets when we're dealing with these sort of empirical questions:
snip
Realize that you're going to find a lot of people who have horrible experiences with virtually any endeavor, including religion. Using a few anecdotal examples as proof that gender reassignment harms more than it helps isn't going to work.
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan...ender-20140127Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI Realize that you're going to find a lot of people who have horrible experiences with virtually any endeavor, including religion. Using a few anecdotal examples as proof that gender reassignment harms more than it helps isn't going to work.
How do these people get their lives back, Sam? If the "gender reassignment" doesn't work, what do they do? It's not like they can just stop taking a medicine that didn't work, or go get a second opinion from another doctor, or try a different solution. They are permanently disfigured.
I keep thinking about Dr McCoy on Star Trek responding to a 20th century surgical procedure (I'm thinking it was about lobotomy -- remember when that was a good idea? -- but maybe something else)... anyway, in absolute disgust, he declared "How BARBARIC".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by fm93 View PostIncorrect, unsurprisingly. As I already explained in this thread, re: suicide rates and whatnot, it's entirely possible that Jenner is serving as a symbol of solidarity for some individuals who may desperately need such solidarity. Those would indeed be important ramifications on society and the individual.
The focus was on the feels rather than any 'good' that can possibly be achieved, which is very likely outweighed by the harm of beng a destructive example.
The most common complaints of "offensiveness" I've seen have come from the people denigrating Jenner, who I'm fairly certain you wouldn't consider progressive. It offends their sensibilities, they say. Hence, the emphasis on it here--another thing that's offensive is creating sycophantic memes about soldiers.
But if you insist, next time I'll replace "offensive" with "morally wrong."
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post"Practise two things in your dealings with disease: either help or do not harm the patient".
How do these people get their lives back, Sam? If the "gender reassignment" doesn't work, what do they do? It's not like they can just stop taking a medicine that didn't work, or go get a second opinion from another doctor, or try a different solution. They are permanently disfigured.
I keep thinking about Dr McCoy on Star Trek responding to a 20th century surgical procedure (I'm thinking it was about lobotomy -- remember when that was a good idea? -- but maybe something else)... anyway, in absolute disgust, he declared "How BARBARIC".
And while collecting such large datasets runs a real risk of survivor bias, it's better than picking out two or three testimonials or simply guessing."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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You understand that this is the same thing as saying that modern medicine is quackery because Washington's doctors bled him to death, right?"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostYou understand that this is the same thing as saying that modern medicine is quackery...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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