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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    homosexuality and transgenderism and the like ... things that, even if they were sinful, cause others much less harm than more ubiquitous sins like avarice or illicit violence. What I'm sayin' is that I suppose I can't take criticisms of being a transgender apologist seriously from folks who have been apologists for torture.
    Depending on what yardstick you use to measure harm. And I'm no apologist for torture.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      Just get a couple more Democrats in the White House and I'm sure we'll get gender reassignment surgery covered by that diabolical ACA yet.
      And you, no doubt, will be thrilled.

      Alcoholics diminish their own lives and often the lives of others around them in tangible ways. In other words, alcoholism has clear and real harms associated with it. Gender reassignment, on the other hand, could potentially save many lives. It's certainly helped many people's quality of life, if we go by their own assessments.
      "could potentially"... On the other hand, we know that it has ruined some.

      It's funny (in a fashion) how this board always seems hung up on sins like homosexuality and transgenderism and the like ... things that, even if they were sinful, cause others much less harm than more ubiquitous sins like avarice or illicit violence. What I'm sayin' is that I suppose I can't take criticisms of being a transgender apologist seriously from folks who have been apologists for torture.
      You'd have to discuss that with the apologist for torture, Sam.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Depending on what yardstick you use to measure harm. And I'm no apologist for torture.
        My apologies; I wasn't intending to imply that you were. Should've been clearer in a multi-party discussion.

        And I agree; the "yardstick" one uses to measure harm can affect the conclusion ... that's a good reason, in my mind, to make sure one's yardstick has a solid empirical backing (or is at least open to broad rational critique).
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          What really saddens me is that Christians get caught up in all this psychobabble, and become evangelists for it, instead of the Power of God to change lives.
          Here's a good example of God changing lives, even AFTER the disaster of "gender reassignment".

          I had irreversible gender reassignment surgery in 1997 absolutely convinced I was a woman in a man's body. I anticipated living happily ever after, however I had persistent difficulties and fell into deep depression. I began reading the Bible, unsatisfied with superficial proclamations of diversity, inclusiveness,and tolerance. I happened upon King David's famous repentance Psalm 51 and discovered, like David, I could be forgiven for all my sins. I also learned God chastens those whom He loves and I was being guided to seek repentance, and faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. I knew identifying as a woman was not living in truth,and returned to my given names and birth gender without further surgery.

          My victory has come by allowing the Lord in my heart,becoming God-focused instead of self-centered, and am thankful for my birth sex and many blessings. despite the consequences and challenges. God has led me to witness His truth and love, and I can testify: indeed, God's grace, mercy and truth do set one free.

          God bless,
          Robert John
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            You'd have to discuss that with the apologist for torture, Sam.
            I had meant to direct that at you and, going back and reading the relevant thread, I have to apologize; I had inferred that you supported and defended "enhanced interrogation" techniques, which are torture, but that discussion ended with you denying that you supported torture but not wanting to get further into the distinction or argument. So I'll just broaden my implication out a bit: I can't really take the criticism of wanting transgender individuals to suffer as little dysphoria as possible seriously when so many people on this board seem to err in the opposite direction on so many issues of consequence (e.g., healthcare, wealth, "enhanced interrogation", etc.).

            Even buying the premise, it's very much a "plank" vs. "mote" experience.
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Here's a good example of God changing lives, even AFTER the disaster of "gender reassignment".

              I had irreversible gender reassignment surgery in 1997 absolutely convinced I was a woman in a man's body. I anticipated living happily ever after, however I had persistent difficulties and fell into deep depression. I began reading the Bible, unsatisfied with superficial proclamations of diversity, inclusiveness,and tolerance. I happened upon King David's famous repentance Psalm 51 and discovered, like David, I could be forgiven for all my sins. I also learned God chastens those whom He loves and I was being guided to seek repentance, and faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. I knew identifying as a woman was not living in truth,and returned to my given names and birth gender without further surgery.

              My victory has come by allowing the Lord in my heart,becoming God-focused instead of self-centered, and am thankful for my birth sex and many blessings. despite the consequences and challenges. God has led me to witness His truth and love, and I can testify: indeed, God's grace, mercy and truth do set one free.

              God bless,
              Robert John
              Well, as usual, I prefer larger datasets when we're dealing with these sort of empirical questions:

              Source: A five-year follow-up study of Swedish adults with gender identity disorder.



              This follow-up study evaluated the outcome of sex reassignment as viewed by both clinicians and patients, with an additional focus on the outcome based on sex and subgroups. Of a total of 60 patients approved for sex reassignment, 42 (25 male-to-female [MF] and 17 female-to-male [FM]) transsexuals completed a follow-up assessment after 5 or more years in the process or 2 or more years after completed sex reassignment surgery. Twenty-six (62%) patients had an early onset and 16 (38%) patients had a late onset; 29 (69%) patients had a homosexual sexual orientation and 13 (31%) patients had a non-homosexual sexual orientation (relative to biological sex). At index and follow-up, a semi-structured interview was conducted. At follow-up, 32 patients had completed sex reassignment surgery, five were still in process, and five-following their own decision-had abstained from genital surgery. No one regretted their reassignment. The clinicians rated the global outcome as favorable in 62% of the cases, compared to 95% according to the patients themselves, with no differences between the subgroups. Based on the follow-up interview, more than 90% were stable or improved as regards work situation, partner relations, and sex life, but 5-15% were dissatisfied with the hormonal treatment, results of surgery, total sex reassignment procedure, or their present general health. Most outcome measures were rated positive and substantially equal for MF and FM. Late-onset transsexuals differed from those with early onset in some respects: these were mainly MF (88 vs. 42%), older when applying for sex reassignment (42 vs. 28 years), and non-homosexually oriented (56 vs. 15%). In conclusion, almost all patients were satisfied with the sex reassignment; 86% were assessed by clinicians at follow-up as stable or improved in global functioning.

              © Copyright Original Source



              Emphasis added.

              Realize that you're going to find a lot of people who have horrible experiences with virtually any endeavor, including religion. Using a few anecdotal examples as proof that gender reassignment harms more than it helps isn't going to work.
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                Psychologists have long since understood that "gender" and "sex" are two separate things. Someone who gender-identifies as male but is physically female cannot really be said to "really be" female any more than they are "really male". This is an artifact of outside perception.
                Psychologists have long understood a whole lot of really stupid stuff. This is just one more.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  I had meant to direct that at you and, going back and reading the relevant thread, I have to apologize; I had inferred that you supported and defended "enhanced interrogation" techniques, which are torture, but that discussion ended with you denying that you supported torture but not wanting to get further into the distinction or argument.
                  Because I'm really conflicted about that, Sam. I really don't know what I think. I argued to get push back trying to find a solid "yeah, that settles it" kind of answer, and it's not there. I had a bad experience in SE Asia, and I'm afraid it skews my thinking on this. So, yeah, I backed out. I still think about it sometimes, but then just shut it out.

                  I, however, am most certainly NOT an apologist for torture in any sense. Rather than rant at you, I'll accept your apology. (isn't this your second apology on this? )

                  So I'll just broaden my implication out a bit: I can't really take the criticism of wanting transgender individuals to suffer as little dysphoria as possible seriously when so many people on this board seem to err in the opposite direction on so many issues of consequence (e.g., healthcare, wealth, "enhanced interrogation", etc.).
                  Um..... you might need to work that one over, too. Who "wants people to suffer"? Just because we don't agree with your "solution" doesn't mean we want ANYbody to suffer, Sam.

                  Even buying the premise, it's very much a "plank" vs. "mote" experience.
                  You're gonna have to spell that one out.
                  Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-07-2015, 11:00 PM.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    Well, as usual, I prefer larger datasets when we're dealing with these sort of empirical questions:

                    snip

                    Realize that you're going to find a lot of people who have horrible experiences with virtually any endeavor, including religion. Using a few anecdotal examples as proof that gender reassignment harms more than it helps isn't going to work.
                    A whopping 41% of people who are transgender or gender-nonconforming have attempted suicide sometime in their lives, nearly nine times the national average, according to a sweeping survey released three years ago.

                    http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan...ender-20140127
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      I Realize that you're going to find a lot of people who have horrible experiences with virtually any endeavor, including religion. Using a few anecdotal examples as proof that gender reassignment harms more than it helps isn't going to work.
                      "Practise two things in your dealings with disease: either help or do not harm the patient".

                      How do these people get their lives back, Sam? If the "gender reassignment" doesn't work, what do they do? It's not like they can just stop taking a medicine that didn't work, or go get a second opinion from another doctor, or try a different solution. They are permanently disfigured.

                      I keep thinking about Dr McCoy on Star Trek responding to a 20th century surgical procedure (I'm thinking it was about lobotomy -- remember when that was a good idea? -- but maybe something else)... anyway, in absolute disgust, he declared "How BARBARIC".
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                        Incorrect, unsurprisingly. As I already explained in this thread, re: suicide rates and whatnot, it's entirely possible that Jenner is serving as a symbol of solidarity for some individuals who may desperately need such solidarity. Those would indeed be important ramifications on society and the individual.

                        The focus was on the feels rather than any 'good' that can possibly be achieved, which is very likely outweighed by the harm of beng a destructive example.

                        The most common complaints of "offensiveness" I've seen have come from the people denigrating Jenner, who I'm fairly certain you wouldn't consider progressive. It offends their sensibilities, they say. Hence, the emphasis on it here--another thing that's offensive is creating sycophantic memes about soldiers.

                        But if you insist, next time I'll replace "offensive" with "morally wrong."
                        It's the progressive who makes so much noise about feels and offense. In addition, he fact that you think offensive and wrong are interchangeable reveals how far you have fallen.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          "Practise two things in your dealings with disease: either help or do not harm the patient".

                          How do these people get their lives back, Sam? If the "gender reassignment" doesn't work, what do they do? It's not like they can just stop taking a medicine that didn't work, or go get a second opinion from another doctor, or try a different solution. They are permanently disfigured.

                          I keep thinking about Dr McCoy on Star Trek responding to a 20th century surgical procedure (I'm thinking it was about lobotomy -- remember when that was a good idea? -- but maybe something else)... anyway, in absolute disgust, he declared "How BARBARIC".
                          You could say the same for people suffering from bipolar disorder or gangrene ... sometimes the treatments don't work and leave the individual worse off than before. The question (both relating to this post and Jed's above) is whether gender reassignment helps more than it hurts — that is whether transgender individuals who opt for hormone therapy and/or reassignment surgeries are generally better off (e.g., happier, less prone to suicide) than those who do not.

                          And while collecting such large datasets runs a real risk of survivor bias, it's better than picking out two or three testimonials or simply guessing.
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            Psychologists have long understood a whole lot of really stupid stuff. This is just one more.
                            Lobotomy.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              You understand that this is the same thing as saying that modern medicine is quackery because Washington's doctors bled him to death, right?
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                You understand that this is the same thing as saying that modern medicine is quackery...
                                Nobody's saying that, Sam. You're doing "that thing" again.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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