A big "Whoops" moment if I've ever seen one.

[Cow Poke]

You act as if wealth makes people immune to everything.

No, I don't. Perhaps that's the way you wrongly perceive it.

[Cow Poke]

You didn't dismiss the point, you just missed it.

No, I dismissed it. And you're being a pest.

The author of that Facebook post used a particular picture in an attempt to trivialize courage pertaining to a transgender experience, but as it turned out, the story behind that picture actually exemplified courage pertaining to a transgender experience.

Yeah, I got that. But I also thought it's possible this was a setup. I don't take a whole lot of Facebook stuff seriously. You realize ANYBODY can post ANYTHING there, right?

The point was that one should be wary about leaping to assumptions and dismissing the possibility of courage, because one could be lacking significant information about a person's background and experiences.

He's a man with boobs! And he's on the cover of Vanity Fair. What kind of courage does that take?

If one's very body causes one to experience distress, anxiety depression day in and day out, simply finding the energy and will to carry on each day can involve a form of bravery.

Wow - I see a soap opera coming!

If one has lived with a painful and deep secret for over half a century, the process of eventually coming to grips with it and acknowledging it can involve a form of bravery. If one knows that other transgender people have been violently attacked and even murdered, and that even today there still exists much fear and loathing towards them, the decision to publicly "come out" and embrace that identity can involve a form of bravery. Remember, Jenner identifies as Christian and Republican, and is well aware that most people in those groups (of which there is much overlap) aren't particularly understanding or accepting towards transgender people.

It's not just a "transgender" situation - it's a rich sports dude who thought he had to be a beauty queen. There's something seriously wrong with that.

AGAIN, I ask.. how does this help the poor gender confused kid on the street who doesn't have the resources to grow boobs and buy a fancy wardrobe?

[Sam]

AGAIN, I ask.. how does this help the poor gender confused kid on the street who doesn't have the resources to grow boobs and buy a fancy wardrobe?

Maybe that kid is a little less likely to get beaten or killed for being transgender this week than last week. Or maybe just a little less likely to commit suicide. Or maybe that kid will just be a little less likely to feel terrible about their lot in life, thinking along the lines of "It gets better."

And none of that would deserve belittling, right?

[Cow Poke]

Maybe that kid is a little less likely to get beaten or killed for being transgender this week than last week.

Why?

Or maybe just a little less likely to commit suicide.

Or maybe MORE likely, since something like the miraculous Jenner transformation is so far out of his reach it's downright depressing.

Or maybe that kid will just be a little less likely to feel terrible about their lot in life, thinking along the lines of "It gets better."

Keep dreaming, Sam.

And none of that would deserve belittling, right?

So, when are the liberals going to fund the miraculous transformation of these poor confused kids, and give them the same opportunity Jenner had, and buy them fancy wardrobes? Lemme guess -- you're gonna want to reach into my pocket again.

[Adrift]

Maybe that kid is a little less likely to get beaten or killed for being transgender this week than last week. Or maybe just a little less likely to commit suicide. Or maybe that kid will just be a little less likely to feel terrible about their lot in life, thinking along the lines of "It gets better."

And none of that would deserve belittling, right?

Or perhaps when little Johnny reaches for his box of Wheaties and finds that his favorite athlete is wearing a dress and high heels, he'll find himself confused about his own sexuality and gender. Maybe he too is really a woman trapped in a man's body. A thought that may have never occurred to him in another time and place. See, when you live in a culture where anything goes, and sin is normalized, you sow confusion in the hearts and minds of people. No longer do we take captive every thought that pops into our heads, now we think "well, hmm, maybe I am what the TV says I am". We're losing control of ourselves, and we're celebrating it, and calling it good. It's evil. It's Satanic. And as a Christian you of all people ought to know better.

[Sam]

Why?

Or maybe MORE likely, since something like the miraculous Jenner transformation is so far out of his reach it's downright depressing.

Keep dreaming, Sam.

You sound like you're just looking for reasons to criticize and complain rather than analyze and reflect. Maybe you ought to seek out some transgender folk and see how they're responding themselves.

So, when are the liberals going to fund the miraculous transformation of these poor confused kids, and give them the same opportunity Jenner had, and buy them fancy wardrobes? Lemme guess -- you're gonna want to reach into my pocket again.

We're gettin' there. Frankly, the thought of taxpayers paying for thousands of gender reassignment surgeries is less offensive than paying for one piece-of-junk F-35B.

[Cow Poke]

Or perhaps when little Johnny reaches for his box of Wheaties and finds that his favorite athlete is wearing a dress and high heels, he'll find himself confused about his own sexuality and gender. Maybe he too is really a woman trapped in a man's body. A thought that may have never occurred to him in another time and place. See, when you live in a culture where anything goes, and sin is normalized, you sow confusion in the hearts and minds of people. No longer do we take captive every thought that pops into our heads, now we think "well, hmm, maybe I am what the TV says I am". We're losing control of ourselves, and we're celebrating it, and calling it good. It's evil. It's Satanic. And as a Christian you of all people ought to know better.

Well said. That's the bottom line - they're trying to solve a spiritual problem with surgery. And there is no shortage of people - including Christians - who get sucked into thinking this is a good thing.

[Cow Poke]

You sound like you're just looking for reasons to criticize and complain rather than analyze and reflect. Maybe you ought to seek out some transgender folk and see how they're responding themselves.

"transgender folk", as you call them, are no different than anybody else who needs Jesus.

[Sam]

Or perhaps when little Johnny reaches for his box of Wheaties and finds that his favorite athlete is wearing a dress and high heels, he'll find himself confused about his own sexuality and gender. Maybe he too is really a woman trapped in a man's body. A thought that may have never occurred to him in another time and place. See, when you live in a culture where anything goes, and sin is normalized, you sow confusion in the hearts and minds of people. No longer do we take captive every thought that pops into our heads, now we think "well, hmm, maybe I am what the TV says I am". We're losing control of ourselves, and we're celebrating it, and calling it good. It's evil. It's Satanic. And as a Christian you of all people ought to know better.

I doubt you'll find many people willing to undergo prolonged hormone therapy and extensive surgeries because they look at Caitlyn Jenner and have a bit of ambivalence about gender identity.

Psychologists have long since understood that "gender" and "sex" are two separate things. Someone who gender-identifies as male but is physically female cannot really be said to "really be" female any more than they are "really male". This is an artifact of outside perception.

I'm loathe to categorize psychological disorders or dysphoria as sin, as I can't find a strong argument for those things being a transgression. Gender dysphoria seems to be a prime space for using religion oppressively.

[Sam]

"transgender folk", as you call them, are no different than anybody else who needs Jesus.

Well, you were asking how Caitlyn Jenner's reassignment surgeries and cover photo would help other transgender people. So maybe you should see how it's being treated by other transgender people.

[Adrift]

I doubt you'll find many people willing to undergo prolonged hormone therapy and extensive surgeries because they look at Caitlyn Jenner and have a bit of ambivalence about gender identity.

Psychologists have long since understood that "gender" and "sex" are two separate things. Someone who gender-identifies as male but is physically female cannot really be said to "really be" female any more than they are "really male". This is an artifact of outside perception.

I'm loathe to categorize psychological disorders or dysphoria as sin, as I can't find a strong argument for those things being a transgression. Gender dysphoria seems to be a prime space for using religion oppressively.

Don't tell me that children, or even teenagers cannot be confused about either their sexual orientation or their gender because of the climate of the culture they live in. I've experienced it personally. My cousin has experienced it personally. I even know an ex-transvestite or two who can attest. Whatever psychologists you're listening to, they're wrong. Plain and simple. As CP pointed out, they're attempting to measure a spiritual thing with a secular measuring stick. And it isn't psychological disorders themselves that are necessarily sinful (though I believe that their source is straight from the father of lies), it's the acceptance of that disorder, the embracing of it, the celebration of it that is the sin. The alcoholic who abstains from drinking isn't sinning. The alcoholic who says, "ah, screw it" does.

[Cow Poke]

Don't tell me that children, or even teenagers cannot be confused about either their sexual orientation or their gender because of the climate of the culture they live in. I've experienced it personally. My cousin has experienced it personally. I even know an ex-transvestite or two who can attest. Whatever psychologists you're listening to, they're wrong. Plain and simple. As CP pointed out, they're attempting to measure a spiritual thing with a secular measuring stick. And it isn't the psychological disorder itself that's the sin, it's the acceptance of that disorder, the embracing of it, the celebration of it that is the sin. The alcoholic who abstains from drinking isn't sinning. The alcoholic who says, "ah, screw it" does.

What really saddens me is that Christians get caught up in all this psychobabble, and become evangelists for it, instead of the Power of God to change lives.

[Cow Poke]

Well, you were asking how Caitlyn Jenner's reassignment

Wait, wasn't it Bruce that got "reassigned"? Didn't Bruce supposedly "become" Caitlyn?

surgeries and cover photo would help other transgender people.

By encouraging them to make the same mistake? Or causing them to WANT to, even though it's nowhere near within their grasps to be like Bruce?

So maybe you should see how it's being treated by other transgender people.

Yes, if somebody totally gives in to alcohol, I should check with the other alcoholics to see what they think.

Sorry, Sam - you've been sucked into this garbage and have become its apologist. I'm not buying it.

[Sam]

Don't tell me that children, or even teenagers cannot be confused about either their sexual orientation or their gender because of the climate of the culture they live in. I've experienced it personally. My cousin has experienced it personally. I even know an ex-transvestite or two who can attest. Whatever psychologists you're listening to, they're wrong. Plain and simple. As CP pointed out, they're attempting to measure a spiritual thing with a secular measuring stick. And it isn't the psychological disorder itself that's the sin, it's the acceptance of that disorder, the embracing of it, the celebration of it that is the sin. The alcoholic who abstains from drinking isn't sinning. The alcoholic who says, "ah, screw it" does.

I didn't say that people cannot be confused thanks to cultural cues. I said that people who take the steps involved to transition from one gender to another are not likely confused — that's a level of commitment that generally takes a fair amount of certainty.

If we're talking about a psychological phenomenon, I don't think we're talking about "something spiritual." Those are two separate things, as psychology is necessarily tied to the material — the brain, inherited genes, environmental causes, etc. It would be difficult for me, for example, to call a violent offender out for his "sin" if I knew that his violence was attributable to lead poisoning or a brain tumor.

Likewise, I think it is a mistake to categorize people who are doing what they can to find relief from a dysphoria as sinners, so long as they are not willfully harming others in the process. From an evolutionary standpoint, these sorts of problems are going to happen; it seems ... it is cruel to expect people to suffer lifelong mental anguish without a compelling reason.

[Sam]

Wait, wasn't it Bruce that got "reassigned"? Didn't Bruce supposedly "become" Caitlyn?



By encouraging them to make the same mistake? Or causing them to WANT to, even though it's nowhere near within their grasps to be like Bruce?

Just get a couple more Democrats in the White House and I'm sure we'll get gender reassignment surgery covered by that diabolical ACA yet.

Yes, if somebody totally gives in to alcohol, I should check with the other alcoholics to see what they think.

Sorry, Sam - you've been sucked into this garbage and have become its apologist. I'm not buying it.

Alcoholics diminish their own lives and often the lives of others around them in tangible ways. In other words, alcoholism has clear and real harms associated with it. Gender reassignment, on the other hand, could potentially save many lives. It's certainly helped many people's quality of life, if we go by their own assessments.

It's funny (in a fashion) how this board always seems hung up on sins like homosexuality and transgenderism and the like ... things that, even if they were sinful, cause others much less harm than more ubiquitous sins like avarice or illicit violence. What I'm sayin' is that I suppose I can't take criticisms of being a transgender apologist seriously from folks who have been apologists for torture.