A big "Whoops" moment if I've ever seen one.

[fm93]

Well, well, well.

The following Facebook post went viral on June 1st:

As I see post after post about Bruce Jenner's transition to a woman, and I hear words like, bravery, heroism, and courage, just thought I'd remind all of us what real American courage, heroism, and bravery looks like!

A fairly common sentiment that I've seen, especially among people who, uh, hold to the common sociopolitical mindset in this forum.

But the very next day, the person who made that post followed it up to report something: he'd found out that those figures weren't real. Those were actually mannequin dolls. He also revealed this stunningly ironic other discovery about the picture:

This is the photo I shared yesterday in the spirit of spotlighting "true bravery."

This photo that accompanied my words, was chosen from a quick image search. Just wanted something to fit my words. I wanted to find out who the photographer was, so I could credit his work.

In an ironic twist, I have discovered that the photo is part of a documentary created by a man who was beaten nearly to death outside of a bar in 2000. After spending 9 days in a coma, suffering severe brain damage and being unable to walk or talk for a year, he chose to try and cope with his pain from the tragic event, by creating a world of stories and characters and photos set in WWII. The image I chose, was one of those created for an upcoming documentary. Why was he nearly beaten to death by 5 strangers?

Because he was a cross-dresser.

I could have chosen one of hundreds of other photos. But I didn't, I chose this one. Do I think it was an accident? I don't.

What happened to this man was wrong, cruel, and unforgivable.

Hate helps nothing.

Love wounds no one.

and God heals all.

(and irony makes us think)

/long, slow whistle

Interested readers can find more information about the artist here.


So as it turns out, we live in a world in which some people's lives are literally threatened for something as innocuous as dressing up like a woman. There are actually disgraces of humanity who are that hateful. One can only imagine how much more hate might be engendered (no pun intended) if someone, say, went even further and tried to become a woman. And while I don't know for certain that this was consciously in mind, if a certain person knew that such hate existed and that life could be at stake for daring to appear as transgender, and said person publicly appeared as transgender anyway...that would seem like a fairly brave move to me.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Jenner exhibits bravery that exceeds that of soldiers. There's nothing wrong with believing that overall, a soldier might show more courage than Jenner. I would actually agree with that. But it's clear from the memes going around that several of the propagators aren't trying to uplift soldiers so much as denigrate Jenner. And that's offensive not only to Jenner and other transgender folks, who for all we know might have had much more courage than previously thought, but to the soldiers as well, being used as props in an effort to belittle transgender people and issues. (Also, another widespread meme--that the runner-up to Jenner for the Arthur Ashe Courage Award was a veteran who lost his limbs fighting in Iraq--is false. The veteran was never a nominee for that particular award. That award doesn't even offer runner-up spots.)

[Cow Poke]

[Cow Poke]

To be clear, I'm not saying that Jenner exhibits bravery that exceeds that of soldiers. There's nothing wrong with believing that overall, a soldier might show more courage than Jenner. I would actually agree with that.

But it's clear from the memes going around that several of the propagators aren't trying to uplift soldiers so much as denigrate Jenner. And that's offensive not only to Jenner and other transgender folks, who for all we know might have had much more courage than previously thought, but to the soldiers as well, being used as props in an effort to belittle transgender people and issues. (Also, another widespread meme--that the runner-up to Jenner for the Arthur Ashe Courage Award was a veteran who lost his limbs fighting in Iraq--is false. The veteran was never a nominee for that particular award. That award doesn't even offer runner-up spots.)

What "courage" is Jenner exhibiting? He's a rich celebrity who has the media eating out of his hand and kissing his butt. He'll probably be back on a box of Wheaties as a woman.

[Cow Poke]

To be clear, I'm not saying that Jenner exhibits bravery that exceeds that of soldiers.

So, tell me this. How does it help "the cause" for this rich famous guy to spend thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of dollars on fake big boobs, cosmetic surgery, fancy clothes -- that MOST gender confused individuals could never afford --- what exactly has been accomplished here?

The idiots at The Nation claim...

Gender is self-determination, and Caitlyn Jenner seizing that self-determination in such a public fashion will save lives. We hopefully will see a difference not only in the shocking suicide rates of trans teens, but also in a heightened awareness of the plight of black trans women, who are victimized by an epidemic of violence.

WILL SAVE LIVES!?!?!?!?!?!

Why couldn't Brave Bruce just let his hair grow and wear women's clothes and appear in public as the pretend woman he is? How does it help "trans teens" that a rich guy has spent a small fortune transforming himself into a fashion model?

caitlyn_jenner_vanity_fair_sg_img.jpg

And who on the planet doesn't know that he's a guy pretending to be a woman?

It absolutely amazes me that people are going all euphoric over a rich guy buying boobs and a fancy wardrobe, and somehow that's supposed to help "trans teens", many of whom are into drugs and prostitution. Is the gay community going to buy THEM big boobs and fancy wardrobes?

I really really don't get this at all.

[jpholding]

An accessory takeaway lesson: Memes are a particularly stupid way to get out a message.

[Christy]

What "courage" is Jenner exhibiting? He's a rich celebrity who has the media eating out of his hand and kissing his butt. He'll probably be back on a box of Wheaties as a woman.

Exactly! As I typed elsewhere; I'll probably be attacked for typing this anywhere else, but I don't think that what Bruce/Caitlyn did was all that brave or courageous. Jenner has a lot of money, so enough to pay for security and surgery to look good. She hangs with people who would probably accept the transitioning from male to female, rich celebrities and people in the public eye whose every word would be looked at to see if they say something offensive since there are more people looking at their words. They could lose job opportunities and be shunned by society if they even so much as call Jenner by male pronouns or anything else deemed offensive.

Jenner's family has to go along with it, even if it disturbs them or makes them uneasy or be shamed for disagreeing by the rest of the family and the public along with everybody else who disagrees or feels uncomfortable, because people who fit in with the cause of the day such as transgenders, comfort and their life really, is deemed more important than the people's who disagree. Jenner most likely knew how the culture is today that she'd get praise from all the other celebrities that's why she waited until now to do what she did and chickened out in the eighties when she started taking hormones at first. I think all of these tweets from the president and everybody calling her courageous is ridiculous. If Jenner done it way back when it would've been courageous, not now.

[fm93]

What "courage" is Jenner exhibiting? He's a rich celebrity who has the media eating out of his hand and kissing his butt. He'll probably be back on a box of Wheaties as a woman.

You, uh...missed the point of the OP, huh?

So, tell me this. How does it help "the cause" for this rich famous guy to spend thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of dollars on fake big boobs, cosmetic surgery, fancy clothes -- that MOST gender confused individuals could never afford --- what exactly has been accomplished here?

You, uh...still missed the point.

The idiots at The Nation claim...



WILL SAVE LIVES!?!?!?!?!?!

As has pointed out many times, there is a troublingly high suicide rate among transgender people. As was just pointed out in the OP, there have also existed very real and startling violent acts against them. For such people who may be teetering on the brink, a public figure "coming out" and boldly embracing the transgender experience can serve as a strong sign of solidarity.

And who on the planet doesn't know that he's a guy pretending to be a woman?

I think it stands to reason that if a person undergoes such an extensive process, the belief that a "female" body more accurately resembles one's true inner soul is genuine, and that it would be technically inaccurate to say that Jenner is "pretending" to be a woman.

[fm93]

Exactly! As I typed elsewhere; I'll probably be attacked for typing this anywhere else, but I don't think that what Bruce/Caitlyn did was all that brave or courageous. Jenner has a lot of money, so enough to pay for security and surgery to look good. She hangs with people who would probably accept the transitioning from male to female, rich celebrities and people in the public eye whose every word would be looked at to see if they say something offensive since there are more people looking at their words. They could lose job opportunities and be shunned by society if they even so much as call Jenner by male pronouns or anything else deemed offensive.

Jenner's family has to go along with it, even if it disturbs them or makes them uneasy

It appears that you didn't see the interview with Diane Sawyer--in it, Jenner claims to have been deeply worried about how the family would react, and that such worry was part of what delayed the "coming out" admission for so long. Furthermore, Jenner identifies as Christian and Republican, and is well aware of how most Christian Republicans tend to react to transgender people and issues. So the idea you seem to be advancing--that Jenner was confident that the admission would be well-accepted--doesn't appear to have much evidence behind it.

or be shamed for disagreeing by the rest of the family and the public along with everybody else who disagrees or feels uncomfortable, because people who fit in with the cause of the day such as transgenders, comfort and their life really, is deemed more important than the people's who disagree.

Calling it "the cause of the day" seems rather unfair, I think--could not many people genuinely care about such people and issues? You make it sound as if it was some random whim conjured on the spur of the moment.

Jenner most likely knew how the culture is today that she'd get praise from all the other celebrities

But as pointed out in the interview, a common reaction from the paparazzi and comedians during Jenner's period of silence was ridicule.

that's why she waited until now to do what she did and chickened out in the eighties when she started taking hormones at first.

Again, in the interview Jenner claimed that family and the accompanying worries regarding them were what led to the decision to stop hormones, and as for the question of "Why wait until now," the response was that Jenner reached age 60 and became increasingly concerned about the possibility of dying without ever having "lived truly." It's possible that your idea could be true, but currently it's just speculation.

I think all of these tweets from the president and everybody calling her courageous is ridiculous. If Jenner done it way back when it would've been courageous, not now.

That's an understandable opinion, but as I was trying to explain via the OP, I don't believe using memes involving soldiers is the way to argue that.

[Paprika]

You, uh...missed the point of the OP, huh?

The point was to get people to notice brave Jenner actually is and focus on the good feels his actions promote instead of whether they were actually good. It's the typical progressive focus on feels instead of important aspects such as the ramifications on the individual and the society.

But it's clear from the memes going around that several of the propagators aren't trying to uplift soldiers so much as denigrate Jenner. And that's offensive not only to Jenner and other transgender folks, who for all we know might have had much more courage than previously thought, but to the soldiers as well, being used as props in an effort to belittle transgender people and issues.

Denigration is a natural response to the excessive praise and attention Jenner's getting. Note how the progressive places the usual emphasis on 'offensive'.

[Cow Poke]

You, uh...missed the point of the OP, huh?

No, I dismissed the point as goofy and invalid, and fodder for the weak minded and ignorant. A RICH man who is very popular with the media spends a small fortune making himself into a beauty queen (in some people's eyes - I still see a man ) and somehow, that's "bravery", and is going to help poor people -- what -- have a false hope that they, too, can appear on the cover of fashion magazines?

[Jedidiah]

I think it stands to reason that if a person undergoes such an extensive process, the belief that a "female" body more accurately resembles one's true inner soul is genuine, and that it would be technically inaccurate to say that Jenner is "pretending" to be a woman.

You are correct in saying that "it would be technically inaccurate to say that Jenner is "pretending" to be a woman." An accurate statement would be more like Jenner is delusional thinking that he is a woman.

[Adrift]

Marwencol is the name of the documentary. I watched it a few years ago. Interesting work, but the artist was very odd (even before suffering brain damage). Creeped me out a bit, honestly (and I like eccentric types).

[Cow Poke]

You are correct in saying that "it would be technically inaccurate to say that Jenner is "pretending" to be a woman." An accurate statement would be more like Jenner is delusional thinking that he is a woman.

Yeah, I'll withdraw my summary and replace it with Jed's.

[fm93]

No, I dismissed the point as goofy and invalid, and fodder for the weak minded and ignorant. A RICH man

You act as if wealth makes people immune to everything.

who is very popular with the media

Timeframe is important here. During the silent transitioning period, Jenner was frequently hounded and ridiculed by paparazzi and comedians.

spends a small fortune making himself into a beauty queen (in some people's eyes - I still see a man ) and somehow, that's "bravery", and is going to help poor people -- what -- have a false hope that they, too, can appear on the cover of fashion magazines?

You didn't dismiss the point, you just missed it. The author of that Facebook post used a particular picture in an attempt to trivialize courage pertaining to a transgender experience, but as it turned out, the story behind that picture actually exemplified courage pertaining to a transgender experience. The point was that one should be wary about leaping to assumptions and dismissing the possibility of courage, because one could be lacking significant information about a person's background and experiences.

If one's very body causes one to experience distress, anxiety depression day in and day out, simply finding the energy and will to carry on each day can involve a form of bravery. If one has lived with a painful and deep secret for over half a century, the process of eventually coming to grips with it and acknowledging it can involve a form of bravery. If one knows that other transgender people have been violently attacked and even murdered, and that even today there still exists much fear and loathing towards them, the decision to publicly "come out" and embrace that identity can involve a form of bravery. Remember, Jenner identifies as Christian and Republican, and is well aware that most people in those groups (of which there is much overlap) aren't particularly understanding or accepting towards transgender people.

[fm93]

The point was to get people to notice brave Jenner actually is and focus on the good feels his actions promote instead of whether they were actually good. It's the typical progressive focus on feels instead of important aspects such as the ramifications on the individual and the society.

Incorrect, unsurprisingly. As I already explained in this thread, re: suicide rates and whatnot, it's entirely possible that Jenner is serving as a symbol of solidarity for some individuals who may desperately need such solidarity. Those would indeed be important ramifications on society and the individual.

Denigration is a natural response to the excessive praise and attention Jenner's getting. Note how the progressive places the usual emphasis on 'offensive'.

The most common complaints of "offensiveness" I've seen have come from the people denigrating Jenner, who I'm fairly certain you wouldn't consider progressive. It offends their sensibilities, they say. Hence, the emphasis on it here--another thing that's offensive is creating sycophantic memes about soldiers.

But if you insist, next time I'll replace "offensive" with "morally wrong."