// Required code

Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Let's try nuanced thinking.

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Let's try nuanced thinking.

    We're still at it, making gross, negative generalisations about millions of people. Try on some of these mind blowing thoughts:

    1. There is no 'Left'. There is no monolithic 'culture' and agenda of the left. Instead, there is a broad spectrum of views from the political centre to the extreme left. So when you rail against the 'evil left' you are probably railing against some people who might actually support some of your views. This is self defeating.

    2. There is no Right'. Beck and Limbaugh are not typical and they do not speak for all conservatives. They're just loud. Just like people on the left, people on the right have a broad spectrum of views from the centrist to the extreme. When a person on the 'left' labels all conservatives as dumb or dishonest, he's being a jackass.

    3. There is no gay 'agenda'. Gay people can be left, right or centrist. There are gay Republicans. Gay people are spread across the whole political spectrum and not all of them care about your cakes.

    Lumping whole sections of the community into a single group defined by something you don't like is simplistic thinking. I know most of you people are capable of complex and nuanced thought. Let's try to have some discussions based on recognitions that complex issues elicit complex responses and just because someone disagrees with you they are not 'slimy and dishonest'.

  • #2
    (Many) people seem to like putting others in neat little boxes with labels on them. But these boxes are often too small to fit us as persons. We have nuances in character traits, personalities and opinions among other things that go way beyond labels like "conservative" or "liberal". Some of us here on Tweb are not even from the US.

    So for example here, virtually everyone is opposed to the death penalty, including pretty much the entire right wing.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
      So for example here, virtually everyone is opposed to the death penalty, including pretty much the entire right wing.
      Well it's that sort of thing that makes it easier / more accurate to box people. It really can be the case that generalizations on a fairly large scale can be pretty valid.

      For example, if you tell pretty much anyone in my country that a lot of people in the US oppose the introduction of universal healthcare there, their jaw will drop.

      PS. Your location made me look up Faroe Islands, and they look very pretty. They just got added to my mental list of places I would like to visit.

      Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
      3. There is no gay 'agenda'.
      I think you'll find there is: It's called the US constitution, and it says gay people get equal protection under the law. That includes the fundamental right to marry, as the Supreme Court will (presumably) rule shortly.

      Comment


      • #4
        FYI: The fact that not only do we have the traditional left-right split(in its Nordic variant) but we are also split down the middle(roughly speaking) regarding the issue of potential secession from Denmark complicates Faroese politics immensely.

        The two major parties in the current coalition are split on that issue for instance. Other coalitions have been split on left - right issues and others still on both issues.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
          FYI: The fact that not only do we have the traditional left-right split(in its Nordic variant) but we are also split down the middle(roughly speaking) regarding the issue of potential secession from Denmark complicates Faroese politics immensely.

          The two major parties in the current coalition are split on that issue for instance. Other coalitions have been split on left - right issues and others still on both issues.
          I looked up the Faroe Islands - what a beautiful place to live!
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
            We're still at it, making gross, negative generalisations about millions of people. Try on some of these mind blowing thoughts:

            1. There is no 'Left'. There is no monolithic 'culture' and agenda of the left. Instead, there is a broad spectrum of views from the political centre to the extreme left. So when you rail against the 'evil left' you are probably railing against some people who might actually support some of your views. This is self defeating.

            2. There is no Right'. Beck and Limbaugh are not typical and they do not speak for all conservatives. They're just loud. Just like people on the left, people on the right have a broad spectrum of views from the centrist to the extreme. When a person on the 'left' labels all conservatives as dumb or dishonest, he's being a jackass.

            3. There is no gay 'agenda'. Gay people can be left, right or centrist. There are gay Republicans. Gay people are spread across the whole political spectrum and not all of them care about your cakes.

            Lumping whole sections of the community into a single group defined by something you don't like is simplistic thinking. I know most of you people are capable of complex and nuanced thought. Let's try to have some discussions based on recognitions that complex issues elicit complex responses and just because someone disagrees with you they are not 'slimy and dishonest'.

            Needless to say, I always enjoy your sniping. But seriously now, getting so enraged can't be good for your health.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
              We're still at it, making gross, negative generalisations about millions of people. Try on some of these mind blowing thoughts:

              1. There is no 'Left'. There is no monolithic 'culture' and agenda of the left. Instead, there is a broad spectrum of views from the political centre to the extreme left. So when you rail against the 'evil left' you are probably railing against some people who might actually support some of your views. This is self defeating.

              2. There is no Right'. Beck and Limbaugh are not typical and they do not speak for all conservatives. They're just loud. Just like people on the left, people on the right have a broad spectrum of views from the centrist to the extreme. When a person on the 'left' labels all conservatives as dumb or dishonest, he's being a jackass.

              3. There is no gay 'agenda'. Gay people can be left, right or centrist. There are gay Republicans. Gay people are spread across the whole political spectrum and not all of them care about your cakes.

              Lumping whole sections of the community into a single group defined by something you don't like is simplistic thinking. I know most of you people are capable of complex and nuanced thought. Let's try to have some discussions based on recognitions that complex issues elicit complex responses and just because someone disagrees with you they are not 'slimy and dishonest'.
              While I agree with most of the rest, there really truly is a gay agenda. That doesn't mean that there is some secret cabal of gay rights proponents hiding out in some secretive bunker ala Dr. Strangelove, but it does mean that efforts are continuously being made to normalize homosexuality to the general public. That includes things like the gay rights movement disassociating itself from NAMBLA in the early 80s (after years of working together) so that the public perception was improved. Or the overrepresentation of homosexuals on TV (which is about twice as high as it is in reality according to GLAAD). Here's an article demonstrating how the BBC was told to add more gay people to children's shows to help familiarize children with homosexuality as normative.

              Part of the study was based on interviews with LGB organisations and representatives, who said the media played a critical role in educating wider society as well as reassuring younger gay viewers by using positive role models.
              They said that although there had been a gradual degree of improvement across all media in the last ten years, representation of gay people is still so unusual that it “stands out” when included.
              Lesbians and bisexuals were felt to be particularly under-represented.
              The panel said that drama was a “powerful tool” that should be used to educate viewers about sexuality but warned that the “biggest risk” lay in comedy, when gay and lesbian characters became the focus of the joke.
              The report comes two years after a similar BBC study was conducted, but concerns were raised that the findings of the 2010 research had not been effectively communicated with independent producers.
              Tim Davie, the BBC’s acting director general and chair of the BBC Working Group which commissioned the review, said: “The BBC has a fundamental obligation to serve all its audiences. In fact, it’s one of the BBC’s public purposes to reflect the diversity of UK life.


              I just watched the film The Imitation Game the other day, and aspects of Alan Turing's life were purposely altered so that the audience was made to greatly sympathize with his ordeal as a homosexual. (potential spoiler) Led to believe that he committed suicide because of the persecution he endured because of it.

              It wasn't true, but there was an agenda to serve, and it's one that, in my opinion, is very often seen in film since at least Philadelphia, if not before then. So, yeah, it may not always be an orchestrated agenda (though sometimes it is), but there is an underlining movement to normalize it, and it's working.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                I just watched the film The Imitation Game the other day, and aspects of Alan Turing's life were purposely altered so that the audience was made to greatly sympathize with his ordeal as a homosexual. (potential spoiler) Led to believe that he committed suicide because of the persecution he endured because of it.

                It wasn't true, but there was an agenda to serve, and it's one that, in my opinion, is very often seen in film since at least Philadelphia, if not before then. So, yeah, it may not always be an orchestrated agenda (though sometimes it is), but there is an underlining movement to normalize it, and it's working.
                I still really like the film. Benedict Cumberbatch is the best...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I still really like the film. Benedict Cumberbatch is the best...
                  The film held my interest -- the cinematography, acting, editing, and score were fine, but I was mostly interested in it from a historical perspective. Later finding that almost none of it was historically accurate, other than some of the names, and that Turing did work on a project to decode Enigma during the war, left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm not against a production taking some artistic liberties, but I think we gain a lot more from films that stay true to the historical narrative without forcing a modern subtext.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    The film held my interest -- the cinematography, acting, editing, and score were fine, but I was mostly interested in it from a historical perspective. Later finding that almost none of it was historically accurate, other than some of the names, and that Turing did work on a project to decode Enigma during the war, left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm not against a production taking some artistic liberties, but I think we gain a lot more from films that stay true to the historical narrative without forcing a modern subtext.
                    This is true, but I suspected that would be the case going in. I only expect good art from Hollywood, not good history - though you can have both. And the sad part is that "real" history is often more compelling than the nonsense that they make up.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      While I agree with most of the rest, there really truly is a gay agenda. That doesn't mean that there is some secret cabal of gay rights proponents hiding out in some secretive bunker ala Dr. Strangelove, but it does mean that efforts are continuously being made to normalize homosexuality to the general public. That includes things like the gay rights movement disassociating itself from NAMBLA in the early 80s (after years of working together) so that the public perception was improved. Or the overrepresentation of homosexuals on TV (which is about twice as high as it is in reality according to GLAAD). Here's an article demonstrating how the BBC was told to add more gay people to children's shows to help familiarize children with homosexuality as normative.

                      Part of the study was based on interviews with LGB organisations and representatives, who said the media played a critical role in educating wider society as well as reassuring younger gay viewers by using positive role models.
                      They said that although there had been a gradual degree of improvement across all media in the last ten years, representation of gay people is still so unusual that it “stands out” when included.
                      Lesbians and bisexuals were felt to be particularly under-represented.
                      The panel said that drama was a “powerful tool” that should be used to educate viewers about sexuality but warned that the “biggest risk” lay in comedy, when gay and lesbian characters became the focus of the joke.
                      The report comes two years after a similar BBC study was conducted, but concerns were raised that the findings of the 2010 research had not been effectively communicated with independent producers.
                      Tim Davie, the BBC’s acting director general and chair of the BBC Working Group which commissioned the review, said: “The BBC has a fundamental obligation to serve all its audiences. In fact, it’s one of the BBC’s public purposes to reflect the diversity of UK life.


                      I just watched the film The Imitation Game the other day, and aspects of Alan Turing's life were purposely altered so that the audience was made to greatly sympathize with his ordeal as a homosexual. (potential spoiler) Led to believe that he committed suicide because of the persecution he endured because of it.

                      It wasn't true, but there was an agenda to serve, and it's one that, in my opinion, is very often seen in film since at least Philadelphia, if not before then. So, yeah, it may not always be an orchestrated agenda (though sometimes it is), but there is an underlining movement to normalize it, and it's working.
                      Excellent well thought out nuanced article.

                      I bet most of the proponents of "equal rights" for gays don't realize (or wish to discount) the NAMBLA element. That, of course, was very easy to attack, so that part was split off.

                      Just out of curiosity, Adrift, do you see NAMBLA being folded back into this, or is NAMBLA a lost cause?
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Just out of curiosity, Adrift, do you see NAMBLA being folded back into this, or is NAMBLA a lost cause?
                        I don't think NAMBLA as an organization will be folded back into the overall movement, but I've read many advocates of the GLBTQ movement express sympathy and solidarity for pedophiles, especially in assent to child pornography. I'm a fan of the Beat poets, and it was no secret that both Allen Ginsberg and William Burroughs were sexually attracted to young male teenagers. Ginsberg eventually became a member and vocal defender of NAMBLA, and I remember reading years ago that one of his defenses of the organization was that male attraction to boys had always been a part of the gay movement from very early on (and here, I can only imagine he's thinking as far back as maybe the late 40s and 50s). The gay rights activist who did probably more for the movement than anyone else early on, Harry Hay, was also a NAMBLA proponent, and argued, "If the parents and friends of gays are truly friends of gays, they would know from their gay kids that the relationship with an older man is precisely what thirteen-, fourteen-, and fifteen-year-old kids need more than anything else in the world".

                        But there's just too much stigma around it right now for the gay rights movement as a whole to take the heat of supporting something like NAMBLA directly, especially as it's currently so successful in it's endeavors. I give it another 15-20 years before we see a popular push in the mainstream media. Perhaps a biopic on a famous closet pedophile who took on a child lover. I'm certain it'll be made to look very romantic and innocent, and will focus on stirring up the audience's sympathy. There are already a number of films that flirt with this theme (Lolita, The Professional, and a few foreign films), but nothing overt.

                        I think BP was correct in another thread though, that polyamory will be the next big cultural movement.
                        Last edited by Adrift; 06-05-2015, 01:34 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          I think BP was correct in another thread though, that polyamory will be the next big cultural movement.


                          The T-War is already upon you and still you conservatives persist in deluding yourselves that the progressives will be stupid and choose not only a cause that is difficult but most of them don't care much about at all. It's conservatives who harp on the repeal of bigamy laws for the slippery slope argument against homosexual marriage and [wrongly] project that progressives think it as important as they do.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            While I agree with most of the rest, there really truly is a gay agenda. That doesn't mean that there is some secret cabal of gay rights proponents hiding out in some secretive bunker ala Dr. Strangelove, but it does mean that efforts are continuously being made to normalize homosexuality to the general public.
                            As long as the facts being presented about homosexuality are true, what's wrong with this?

                            I just watched the film The Imitation Game the other day, and aspects of Alan Turing's life were purposely altered so that the audience was made to greatly sympathize with his ordeal as a homosexual. (potential spoiler) Led to believe that he committed suicide because of the persecution he endured because of it.
                            I watched the film last winter, and I didn't come away with the impression that the film particularly emphasized his homosexuality. Obviously the mention was there, but for some reason what resonated with me wasn't his sexuality so much as the loneliness that I perceived he felt. It seemed to be displaying a universal theme with his homosexuality as the backdrop.
                            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Paprika View Post


                              The T-War is already upon you and still you conservatives persist in deluding yourselves that the progressives will be stupid and choose not only a cause that is difficult but most of them don't care much about at all. It's conservatives who harp on the repeal of bigamy laws for the slippery slope argument against homosexual marriage and [wrongly] project that progressives think it as important as they do.
                              Never been called a conservative before, so that's interesting. I see transexuality as part of the already established gay/lesbian movement.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Whateverman, Yesterday, 08:11 PM
                              0 responses
                              14 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Whateverman  
                              Started by shunyadragon, Yesterday, 07:16 PM
                              10 responses
                              41 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post shunyadragon  
                              Started by Whateverman, Yesterday, 12:47 PM
                              10 responses
                              43 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Starlight  
                              Started by Ronson, Yesterday, 10:00 AM
                              33 responses
                              285 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post Ronson
                              by Ronson
                               
                              Started by seanD, 10-18-2020, 05:25 PM
                              2 responses
                              63 views
                              3 likes
                              Last Post seanD
                              by seanD
                               
                              Working...
                              X