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  • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
    It would, CP, but sadly it's not actually, you know, accurate.
    In what way is it not accurate?
    The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
      It would, CP, but sadly it's not actually, you know, accurate.
      You are certainly entitled, you know, to be wrong.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dante View Post
        In what way is it not accurate?
        At a basic level its that sex and gender are not equivocal. Rare would be the trans person, let alone one of the unnamed activists that aren't directly cited, who would advocate for gender essentialism

        Incidentally, How many trans individuals do you know reasonably well? If not, seek one out perhaps? I realize that it might be difficult in Malaysia. At its core, by using unnamed and uncited comments as the basis for the claim is flimsy. Likewise, the article positively glosses over the difference between sex and gender before moving in to comparisons about wanting to change your race and an aside about FGM and fat positivity. It moves as a rapid pace and trusts the reader to already agree with the variety of unargued for assumptions present in the article.

        From a purely rhetorical standpoint, the fact that trans people are part of a block that actively argues against the kind of stereotyping. There are "butch" trans women and "femme" trans men. Likewise, there are people who transition in agender or non-binary ways. This diversity belays the claim of gender role reinforcement.

        Or, put briefly, there is a risk when viewing a group radically different from your own for really obvious contradictions to appear in a "how can these people not realize this" kind of way, but the risk here is that that contradiction is not in contradiction with what that group believes. In this case its a general rejection of Gender Essentialism. Mostly. It's complicated. Has a lot to do with re purposing stereotypes, gender fluidity in non-binary fashions.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
          At a basic level its that sex and gender are not equivocal. Rare would be the trans person, let alone one of the unnamed activists that aren't directly cited, who would advocate for gender essentialism

          Incidentally, How many trans individuals do you know reasonably well? If not, seek one out perhaps? I realize that it might be difficult in Malaysia. At its core, by using unnamed and uncited comments as the basis for the claim is flimsy. Likewise, the article positively glosses over the difference between sex and gender before moving in to comparisons about wanting to change your race and an aside about FGM and fat positivity. It moves as a rapid pace and trusts the reader to already agree with the variety of unargued for assumptions present in the article.

          From a purely rhetorical standpoint, the fact that trans people are part of a block that actively argues against the kind of stereotyping. There are "butch" trans women and "femme" trans men. Likewise, there are people who transition in agender or non-binary ways. This diversity belays the claim of gender role reinforcement.

          Or, put briefly, there is a risk when viewing a group radically different from your own for really obvious contradictions to appear in a "how can these people not realize this" kind of way, but the risk here is that that contradiction is not in contradiction with what that group believes. In this case its a general rejection of Gender Essentialism. Mostly. It's complicated. Has a lot to do with re purposing stereotypes, gender fluidity in non-binary fashions.
          Because gender is a social construct.
          The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dante View Post
            Neurosurgery would indicate it is a physiological problem, but it's not.
            Do we know this for sure. Several other such delusions have been shown to have a physical basis (as pointed out by links in the Deeper Waters thread, "Why is Bruce an exception?" Because the cause of this delusion is not yet know does not mean there is no physiological problem.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
              That's not how medicine works.
              That IS how medicine works. You keep at trying to find a cure until you.. find a cure.

              We don't tell people dying of cancer
              Sorry, but cancer is not in the same ballpark as psychosis.

              or suffering from depression "too bad, we don't have a cure yet".
              Nor do we tell them "Whelp, we are just going to send you home with some rope to hang yourself with because that's what your depression is leading you to do."

              We use chemotherapy or antidepressants, despite being harmful in other ways or not knowing exactly how they work, respectively. When someone is suffering, they only care about alleviating the symptoms. Not being able to go for sound treatment at a cost they are willing to pay because Bill the Cat, medical layperson, doesn't like it seems pretty callous and nonsensical to me.
              Exactly! We use things that at least MARGINALLY work while still trying to find a better solution. We do not help them give into their depression or psychosis.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                Because we don't assume it is a physiological problem without any evidence of it being one.

                This is a good read on the subject:
                http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15108/
                That's for medical researchers to discover. Currently, there are few if any studies that point towards a psychological cause for gender identity disorder, while there is quite a few studies relating to brain and neurochemical differences.

                I find that article of poor quality. The idea of a physiological cause is not even entertained, and would in fact answer all of the authors points.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  That IS how medicine works. You keep at trying to find a cure until you.. find a cure.
                  What makes your opinion have more weight than medical professionals on what is or is not a cure?

                  Sorry, but cancer is not in the same ballpark as psychosis.
                  How do you know BIID is a psychosis?

                  Nor do we tell them "Whelp, we are just going to send you home with some rope to hang yourself with because that's what your depression is leading you to do."
                  Amputation is not euthanasia, Bill.

                  Exactly! We use things that at least MARGINALLY work while still trying to find a better solution. We do not help them give into their depression or psychosis.
                  If an illness is cured, that cannot be called "giving in".

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                    What makes your opinion have more weight than medical professionals on what is or is not a cure?
                    Please cite in the professional literature where bodily mutilation is listed as a cure


                    How do you know BIID is a psychosis?
                    You can call it whatever acronym you want, but it still remains a mental disorder to desire to mutilate your body. A similar disorder:

                    Source: http://www.treatment4addiction.com/conditions-disorders/somatoform/body-dysmorphic-disorder/


                    Body Dysmorphia Disorder (BDD) is a type of somatoform disorder, a mental illness in which a person has symptoms of a medical illness, but the symptoms cannot be fully explained by an actual physical disorder. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines body dysmorphic disorder as a somatoform disorder marked by a preoccupation with an imagined defect in appearance that causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

                    BDD may involve an actual defect that is slight, but the sufferer constantly obsesses over it. As a result, people with this disorder see themselves as "ugly" and often avoid social exposure to others because their appearance seems so shameful and distressing. Some may turn to plastic surgery to try to improve or "fix" their appearance, but are never satisfied. Body dysmorphic disorder is also known as dismorphophobia, or the fear or having a deformity. BDD is a chronic (long-term) disorder that affects men and women equally usually beginning during the teen years or early adulthood.

                    © Copyright Original Source




                    Amputation is not euthanasia, Bill.
                    And mental disorders are not cancer.

                    If an illness is cured, that cannot be called "giving in".
                    Again, please cite medical literature that calls a sex change operation a "cure"
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Please cite in the professional literature where bodily mutilation is listed as a cure
                      lobotomy



                      Oh, that's right! They changed their mind on that one.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                        That's for medical researchers to discover. Currently, there are few if any studies that point towards a psychological cause for gender identity disorder, while there is quite a few studies relating to brain and neurochemical differences.

                        I find that article of poor quality. The idea of a physiological cause is not even entertained, and would in fact answer all of the authors points.
                        The cause is sociological, as I maintain, because this sort of thing does not occur across many cultures. Is there any justification for the idea of a physiological cause? Nope. Therefore, it needs not even be entertained. Or else one might have to entertain the idea that these individuals have been kidnapped by aliens and had their minds reprogrammed as an experiment and sent back to live out their lives.
                        The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Please cite in the professional literature where bodily mutilation is listed as a cure
                          You mean amputation? You don't believe me that amputation is a cure for some illnesses depending upon the case?

                          You can call it whatever acronym you want, but it still remains a mental disorder to desire to mutilate your body. A similar disorder:

                          Source: http://www.treatment4addiction.com/conditions-disorders/somatoform/body-dysmorphic-disorder/


                          Body Dysmorphia Disorder (BDD) is a type of somatoform disorder, a mental illness in which a person has symptoms of a medical illness, but the symptoms cannot be fully explained by an actual physical disorder. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines body dysmorphic disorder as a somatoform disorder marked by a preoccupation with an imagined defect in appearance that causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

                          BDD may involve an actual defect that is slight, but the sufferer constantly obsesses over it. As a result, people with this disorder see themselves as "ugly" and often avoid social exposure to others because their appearance seems so shameful and distressing. Some may turn to plastic surgery to try to improve or "fix" their appearance, but are never satisfied. Body dysmorphic disorder is also known as dismorphophobia, or the fear or having a deformity. BDD is a chronic (long-term) disorder that affects men and women equally usually beginning during the teen years or early adulthood.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          How do you know that BIID is a mental disorder and not physiological? I think phantom limbs and alien hand syndrome have much more in common with BIID than BDD.

                          And mental disorders are not cancer.
                          I didn't compare the two. I compared their treatment.

                          Again, please cite medical literature that calls a sex change operation a "cure"
                          Not a cure, but it is endorsed as an effective treatment through statements by the American Psychiatric Association and American Medical Association.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                            The cause is sociological, as I maintain, because this sort of thing does not occur across many cultures. Is there any justification for the idea of a physiological cause? Nope. Therefore, it needs not even be entertained. Or else one might have to entertain the idea that these individuals have been kidnapped by aliens and had their minds reprogrammed as an experiment and sent back to live out their lives.
                            Why do you think transgender people don't appear across many cultures? I'm pretty sure they do. Have you ever looked into the proposed physiological causes for gender identity disorder? There have been many studies on brain differences and they all seem to point in the same direction.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                              You mean amputation? You don't believe me that amputation is a cure for some illnesses depending upon the case?
                              Amputation is never a cure for any illness. It is a measure that is employed only in the absence of any other alternatives. No one "cures" a hand fracture by amputating the hand. The amputation of a limb in light of gangrene or serious infection does not cure the patient.

                              Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                              How do you know that BIID is a mental disorder and not physiological? I think phantom limbs and alien hand syndrome have much more in common with BIID than BDD.
                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132621

                              "Neurological results suggest that BIID is a brain disorder producing a disruption of the body image, for which parallels for stroke patients are known. If BIID were a neuropsychological disturbance, which includes missing insight into the illness and a specific lack of autonomy, then amputations would be contraindicated and must be evaluated as bodily injuries of mentally disordered patients. Instead of only curing the symptom, a causal therapy should be developed to integrate the alien limb into the body image."
                              The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                                Why do you think transgender people don't appear across many cultures? I'm pretty sure they do. Have you ever looked into the proposed physiological causes for gender identity disorder? There have been many studies on brain differences and they all seem to point in the same direction.
                                I think the reason why GID doesn't appear across many cultures is because "gender" is a social construct. There is no objective basis for defining "gender".
                                The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                                Comment

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