Originally posted by Jaecp
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The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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Originally posted by Jaecp View PostIt would, CP, but sadly it's not actually, you know, accurate.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Dante View PostIn what way is it not accurate?
Incidentally, How many trans individuals do you know reasonably well? If not, seek one out perhaps? I realize that it might be difficult in Malaysia. At its core, by using unnamed and uncited comments as the basis for the claim is flimsy. Likewise, the article positively glosses over the difference between sex and gender before moving in to comparisons about wanting to change your race and an aside about FGM and fat positivity. It moves as a rapid pace and trusts the reader to already agree with the variety of unargued for assumptions present in the article.
From a purely rhetorical standpoint, the fact that trans people are part of a block that actively argues against the kind of stereotyping. There are "butch" trans women and "femme" trans men. Likewise, there are people who transition in agender or non-binary ways. This diversity belays the claim of gender role reinforcement.
Or, put briefly, there is a risk when viewing a group radically different from your own for really obvious contradictions to appear in a "how can these people not realize this" kind of way, but the risk here is that that contradiction is not in contradiction with what that group believes. In this case its a general rejection of Gender Essentialism. Mostly. It's complicated. Has a lot to do with re purposing stereotypes, gender fluidity in non-binary fashions.
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Originally posted by Jaecp View PostAt a basic level its that sex and gender are not equivocal. Rare would be the trans person, let alone one of the unnamed activists that aren't directly cited, who would advocate for gender essentialism
Incidentally, How many trans individuals do you know reasonably well? If not, seek one out perhaps? I realize that it might be difficult in Malaysia. At its core, by using unnamed and uncited comments as the basis for the claim is flimsy. Likewise, the article positively glosses over the difference between sex and gender before moving in to comparisons about wanting to change your race and an aside about FGM and fat positivity. It moves as a rapid pace and trusts the reader to already agree with the variety of unargued for assumptions present in the article.
From a purely rhetorical standpoint, the fact that trans people are part of a block that actively argues against the kind of stereotyping. There are "butch" trans women and "femme" trans men. Likewise, there are people who transition in agender or non-binary ways. This diversity belays the claim of gender role reinforcement.
Or, put briefly, there is a risk when viewing a group radically different from your own for really obvious contradictions to appear in a "how can these people not realize this" kind of way, but the risk here is that that contradiction is not in contradiction with what that group believes. In this case its a general rejection of Gender Essentialism. Mostly. It's complicated. Has a lot to do with re purposing stereotypes, gender fluidity in non-binary fashions.The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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Originally posted by Dante View PostNeurosurgery would indicate it is a physiological problem, but it's not.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostThat's not how medicine works.
We don't tell people dying of cancer
or suffering from depression "too bad, we don't have a cure yet".
We use chemotherapy or antidepressants, despite being harmful in other ways or not knowing exactly how they work, respectively. When someone is suffering, they only care about alleviating the symptoms. Not being able to go for sound treatment at a cost they are willing to pay because Bill the Cat, medical layperson, doesn't like it seems pretty callous and nonsensical to me.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Dante View PostBecause we don't assume it is a physiological problem without any evidence of it being one.
This is a good read on the subject:
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/06/15108/
I find that article of poor quality. The idea of a physiological cause is not even entertained, and would in fact answer all of the authors points.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThat IS how medicine works. You keep at trying to find a cure until you.. find a cure.
Sorry, but cancer is not in the same ballpark as psychosis.
Nor do we tell them "Whelp, we are just going to send you home with some rope to hang yourself with because that's what your depression is leading you to do."
Exactly! We use things that at least MARGINALLY work while still trying to find a better solution. We do not help them give into their depression or psychosis.
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostWhat makes your opinion have more weight than medical professionals on what is or is not a cure?
How do you know BIID is a psychosis?
Amputation is not euthanasia, Bill.
If an illness is cured, that cannot be called "giving in".That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostPlease cite in the professional literature where bodily mutilation is listed as a cure
Oh, that's right! They changed their mind on that one.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostThat's for medical researchers to discover. Currently, there are few if any studies that point towards a psychological cause for gender identity disorder, while there is quite a few studies relating to brain and neurochemical differences.
I find that article of poor quality. The idea of a physiological cause is not even entertained, and would in fact answer all of the authors points.The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostPlease cite in the professional literature where bodily mutilation is listed as a cure
You can call it whatever acronym you want, but it still remains a mental disorder to desire to mutilate your body. A similar disorder:
And mental disorders are not cancer.
Again, please cite medical literature that calls a sex change operation a "cure"
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Originally posted by Dante View PostThe cause is sociological, as I maintain, because this sort of thing does not occur across many cultures. Is there any justification for the idea of a physiological cause? Nope. Therefore, it needs not even be entertained. Or else one might have to entertain the idea that these individuals have been kidnapped by aliens and had their minds reprogrammed as an experiment and sent back to live out their lives.
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostYou mean amputation? You don't believe me that amputation is a cure for some illnesses depending upon the case?
Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostHow do you know that BIID is a mental disorder and not physiological? I think phantom limbs and alien hand syndrome have much more in common with BIID than BDD.
"Neurological results suggest that BIID is a brain disorder producing a disruption of the body image, for which parallels for stroke patients are known. If BIID were a neuropsychological disturbance, which includes missing insight into the illness and a specific lack of autonomy, then amputations would be contraindicated and must be evaluated as bodily injuries of mentally disordered patients. Instead of only curing the symptom, a causal therapy should be developed to integrate the alien limb into the body image."The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostWhy do you think transgender people don't appear across many cultures? I'm pretty sure they do. Have you ever looked into the proposed physiological causes for gender identity disorder? There have been many studies on brain differences and they all seem to point in the same direction.The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987
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