Transabled?

[JimL]

What if those psychological problems cannot be cured through therapy?

They are psychological problems which are continuously re-enforced by society, so can't be changed by the individual. If transgender people were allowed to be, and accepted for, who they are, rather than expected to play the traditional socially acceptable role, then they would probably never get so confused about their identity or feel the need to mutilate themselves in the first place. Bruce Jenner for instance claims to be completely heterosexual, attracted to women, and yet he is going to transgender into a woman. That makes no sense to me. What makes sense to me is that these people just want to be who they were born to be, and not what society expects them to be and so in an attempt to finally accomplish that they go all out.

[Psychic Missile]

That's a difficult question.... It makes me wonder a couple things:

1. How could we know that for sure?
2. Are you admitting that these are psychological problems, not a case of someone being "born in the wrong body?" Because, if so...
3. The idea of, say, amputating a limb because the person's mind fails to recognize it properly is not correcting the problem, but rather accommodating it. Basically just masking it. In a very permanent way.

1. We could know that current therapies aren't effective by study.
2. For the sake of argument, yes.
3. If that is the only effective treatment, then it is better than allowing someone to live a life of suffering.

[Psychic Missile]

Generally is someone is harming themselves we actually try avoid saying "let them keep at it if it they think it helps"

Generally we rely upon medical studies and scientific consensus to determine if a possible curative avenue is fundamentally harmful.

[Psychic Missile]

They are psychological problems which are continuously re-enforced by society, so can't be changed by the individual. If transgender people were allowed to be, and accepted for, who they are, rather than expected to play the traditional socially acceptable role, then they would probably never get so confused about their identity or feel the need to mutilate themselves in the first place. Bruce Jenner for instance claims to be completely heterosexual, attracted to women, and yet he is going to transgender into a woman. That makes no sense to me. What makes sense to me is that these people just want to be who they were born to be, and not what society expects them to be and so in an attempt to finally accomplish that they go all out.

How do you know these issues have societal causes instead of biological causes?

[Raphael]

Generally we rely upon medical studies and scientific consensus to determine if a possible curative avenue is fundamentally harmful.

Cutting yourself with a razor blade or the like would generally be considered by medical studies and scientific consensus fundamentally harmful to someone (which is why we spend so much time and effort trying to help them rather than handing them another razor blade.)

Cutting off one's limbs would also generally be considered by medical studies and scientific consensus fundamentally harmful to someone (which is why we should spend so much time and effort trying to help them, rather than cutting off their limbs.).

[JimL]

How do you know these issues have societal causes instead of biological causes?

Well, I am specifically refering to the transgender community not the transabled. The latter is a new one on me. But for transgender, and this is only my opinion, but I think it is both, societal and biological. Biological because each individual whether male or female, is different, and those differences run the gamut from effeminate to macho, societal because each individual, whether male or female, is supposed to play only one of those specific roles. The role doesn't necessarily match who the person actually is. As I mentioned, Bruce Jenner, mentioned something to the affect that one of the reasons he became an olympic Gold medalist is because he was driven to prove even to himself that he was what society expected him to be. He lived his entire life that way, playing a role, trying to be something that he wasn't. My guess is that if society didn't have these gender identity roles, and people were accepted for whoever they were naturally born to be, then many would not have these identity crisis where they feel a need to transgender.

[Dante]

I'd like to interview a few people who consider themselves transgender, on their reasons for thinking they are of the wrong gender. My hypothesis is no different from what JimL has expressed, as I have mentioned earlier elsewhere:

The idea of "gender" as something different from one's sex is, I think, a byproduct of the idea of gender roles, e.g., what makes a man a "man" is if he acts tough, doesn't cry, likes cars, etc., whereas if you're male and you accept that you are weak, you cry because you're emotional, and you prefer ponies, then you apparently identify as female, because doing or liking those things "make you a girl".

[Sam]

I'd like to interview a few people who consider themselves transgender, on their reasons for thinking they are of the wrong gender. My hypothesis is no different from what JimL has expressed, as I have mentioned earlier elsewhere:

While identifying with traits traditionally associated with the gender one identifies with is part of the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, it is neither a necessary or sufficient symptom. The DSM-5 web site outlines the subject:

Source: Gender Dysphoria. DSM-5.org

For a person to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, there must be a marked difference between the individual’s expressed/experienced gender and the gender others would assign him or her, and it must continue for at least six months. In children, the desire to be of the other gender must be present and verbalized. This condition causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


Gender dysphoria is manifested in a variety of ways, including strong desires to be treated as the other gender or to be rid of one’s sex characteristics, or a strong conviction that one has feelings and reactions typical of the other gender.

© Copyright Original Source

From what I've by and about transgender individuals, the expression of gender dysphoria does vary quite a bit; some people, rather than identifying with psychological or emotional traits expressed through "acting tough" or "being emotional", simply identified as a gender opposite their sex and maintained that they really were/are a boy or girl, despite their respective anatomy.

[Dante]

While identifying with traits traditionally associated with the gender one identifies with is part of the diagnosis of gender dysphoria, it is neither a necessary or sufficient symptom. The DSM-5 web site outlines the subject:

Source: Gender Dysphoria. DSM-5.org

For a person to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, there must be a marked difference between the individual’s expressed/experienced gender and the gender others would assign him or her, and it must continue for at least six months. In children, the desire to be of the other gender must be present and verbalized. This condition causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


Gender dysphoria is manifested in a variety of ways, including strong desires to be treated as the other gender or to be rid of one’s sex characteristics, or a strong conviction that one has feelings and reactions typical of the other gender.

© Copyright Original Source

From what I've by and about transgender individuals, the expression of gender dysphoria does vary quite a bit; some people, rather than identifying with psychological or emotional traits expressed through "acting tough" or "being emotional", simply identified as a gender opposite their sex and maintained that they really were/are a boy or girl, despite their respective anatomy.

"Gender dysphoria is manifested in a variety of ways, including strong desires to be treated as the other gender or to be rid of one’s sex characteristics, or a strong conviction that one has feelings and reactions typical of the other gender."

Apart from the desire to be rid of one's sex characteristics, the others are due to social "norms" rather than any objective factor. What one considers "typical of the other gender" is not shared across cultures.

[seer]

What if those psychological problems cannot be cured through therapy?

You mean like liberalism? I guess they should just live with it. We all have difficulties in life. And according to a couple of past linked studies, those who had sex reassignment surgery are no better off psychologically, in some cases worse. It seems to me, that like with the transabled, it is clearly a mental problem, not a physical one.

[Cow Poke]

They are psychological problems which are continuously re-enforced by society, so can't be changed by the individual.

Yeah, everybody's a victim - no hope.

[Psychic Missile]

Cutting yourself with a razor blade or the like would generally be considered by medical studies and scientific consensus fundamentally harmful to someone (which is why we spend so much time and effort trying to help them rather than handing them another razor blade.)

Cutting off one's limbs would also generally be considered by medical studies and scientific consensus fundamentally harmful to someone (which is why we should spend so much time and effort trying to help them, rather than cutting off their limbs.).

This relates to my question: what if amputation is the only way to help people with BIID?

[Irate Canadian]

This relates to my question: what if amputation is the only way to help people with BIID?

I can't believe this is seriously being considered.....

[firstfloor]

Like you do to unborn babies?

Babies are more like property to which the parents have a duty of care. So they are somewhere between a person and a set of golf clubs.

[Adrift]

Cutting yourself with a razor blade or the like would generally be considered by medical studies and scientific consensus fundamentally harmful to someone (which is why we spend so much time and effort trying to help them rather than handing them another razor blade.)

Cutting off one's limbs would also generally be considered by medical studies and scientific consensus fundamentally harmful to someone (which is why we should spend so much time and effort trying to help them, rather than cutting off their limbs.).

Anyone else like completely bewildered that this sort of thing actually needs to be explained? My 9 year old niece grasps this concept, how is it a grown man can't figure it out? It's just total lunacy.