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  • Originally posted by Dante View Post
    Amputation is never a cure for any illness. It is a measure that is employed only in the absence of any other alternatives. No one "cures" a hand fracture by amputating the hand. The amputation of a limb in light of gangrene or serious infection does not cure the patient.
    You're right, I am using the word "cure" in a cavalier way.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132621

    "Neurological results suggest that BIID is a brain disorder producing a disruption of the body image, for which parallels for stroke patients are known. If BIID were a neuropsychological disturbance, which includes missing insight into the illness and a specific lack of autonomy, then amputations would be contraindicated and must be evaluated as bodily injuries of mentally disordered patients. Instead of only curing the symptom, a causal therapy should be developed to integrate the alien limb into the body image."
    That's a very interesting paper. The author makes two major points and a conclusion which I fully agree with.

    1. The option of amputation depends upon if the desire to amputate is an autonomous decision or an obsessive desire. If amputation is not an autonomous decision, as current psychological understanding indicates, then it should not be performed.

    2. The option of amputation depends upon being the only effective therapy. The success of amputation has not be proven outside of anecdotes, some post-amputee sufferers continue to amputate further, and several other therapies have shown some success.

    The conclusion is that because of these two points, amputation is not recommended as therapy.

    Originally posted by Dante View Post
    I think the reason why GID doesn't appear across many cultures is because "gender" is a social construct. There is no objective basis for defining "gender".
    How would you belief that GID doesn't appear across many cultures be falsifiable? Also, to my knowledge, medical vocabulary doesn't divide sex and gender. See this aggregate of medical dictionary definitions.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
      How would you belief that GID doesn't appear across many cultures be falsifiable? Also, to my knowledge, medical vocabulary doesn't divide sex and gender. See this aggregate of medical dictionary definitions.
      "The repetitious performances of "male" and "female" in accordance with social norms reifies the categories, creating the appearance of a naturalized and essential binary. Gender is never a stable descriptor of an individual, but an individual is always "doing" gender, performing or deviating from the socially accepted performance of gender stereotypes. Doing gender is not just about acting in a particular way. It is about embodying and believing certain gender norms and engaging in practices that map on to those norms. These performances normalize the essentialism of gender categories. In other words, by doing gender, we reinforce the notion that there are only two mutually exclusive categories of gender. The internalized belief that men and women are essentially different is what makes men and women behave in ways that appear essentially different. Gender is maintained as a category through socially constructed displays of gender."

      Source: Boundless. “The Social Construction of Gender.” Boundless Sociology. Boundless, 10 Jun. 2015. Retrieved 12 Jun. 2015 from https://www.boundless.com/sociology/...nder-496-8675/
      The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dante View Post
        "The repetitious performances of "male" and "female" in accordance with social norms reifies the categories, creating the appearance of a naturalized and essential binary. Gender is never a stable descriptor of an individual, but an individual is always "doing" gender, performing or deviating from the socially accepted performance of gender stereotypes. Doing gender is not just about acting in a particular way. It is about embodying and believing certain gender norms and engaging in practices that map on to those norms. These performances normalize the essentialism of gender categories. In other words, by doing gender, we reinforce the notion that there are only two mutually exclusive categories of gender. The internalized belief that men and women are essentially different is what makes men and women behave in ways that appear essentially different. Gender is maintained as a category through socially constructed displays of gender."

        Source: Boundless. “The Social Construction of Gender.” Boundless Sociology. Boundless, 10 Jun. 2015. Retrieved 12 Jun. 2015 from https://www.boundless.com/sociology/...nder-496-8675/
        That doesn't address what I asked and said.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
          That doesn't address what I asked and said.
          Because it doesn't matter what you asked and said.
          The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dante View Post
            "The repetitious performances of "male" and "female" in accordance with social norms reifies the categories, creating the appearance of a naturalized and essential binary. Gender is never a stable descriptor of an individual, but an individual is always "doing" gender, performing or deviating from the socially accepted performance of gender stereotypes. Doing gender is not just about acting in a particular way. It is about embodying and believing certain gender norms and engaging in practices that map on to those norms. These performances normalize the essentialism of gender categories. In other words, by doing gender, we reinforce the notion that there are only two mutually exclusive categories of gender. The internalized belief that men and women are essentially different is what makes men and women behave in ways that appear essentially different. Gender is maintained as a category through socially constructed displays of gender."

            Source: Boundless. “The Social Construction of Gender.” Boundless Sociology. Boundless, 10 Jun. 2015. Retrieved 12 Jun. 2015 from https://www.boundless.com/sociology/...nder-496-8675/
            I'm not sure what the point it. If we take God's defined gender roles in scripture, out of the picture, then gender roles probably have more to do with biology than social constructs. In other words, biology drives gender identity. This is basically what we see in the higher primates. Males dominate, protect, control, and females submit.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              I'm not sure what the point it. If we take God's defined gender roles in scripture, out of the picture, then gender roles probably have more to do with biology than social constructs. In other words, biology drives gender identity. This is basically what we see in the higher primates. Males dominate, protect, control, and females submit.
              Not all of them do, and gender roles are more than just that. Take crying, for example. During the Greco-Roman times, crying is something "manly", thus there are numerous depictions of heroes crying in epics. Pink was a "boy's colour" before the World War. Things like these are obvious examples of gender being a social construct. Now, the Biblical definition has more to do with roles in marriage, not so much gender roles.
              The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                Not all of them do, and gender roles are more than just that. Take crying, for example. During the Greco-Roman times, crying is something "manly", thus there are numerous depictions of heroes crying in epics. Pink was a "boy's colour" before the World War. Things like these are obvious examples of gender being a social construct. Now, the Biblical definition has more to do with roles in marriage, not so much gender roles.

                Hey, I wear pink oxford cloth shirts. Yet I think there is a deeper reality, that men are generally stronger, faster, more aggressive with larger brains. There may be superficial differences from culture to culture. Though I do believe that a culture may try to feminize men, like what we see in the West.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Hey, I wear pink oxford cloth shirts. Yet I think there is a deeper reality, that men are generally stronger, faster, more aggressive with larger brains. There may be superficial differences from culture to culture. Though I do believe that a culture may try to feminize men, like what we see in the West.
                  You forgot the most important part - the whole world is our urinal. And that's universal!


                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Hey, I wear pink oxford cloth shirts. Yet I think there is a deeper reality, that men are generally stronger, faster, more aggressive with larger brains. There may be superficial differences from culture to culture. Though I do believe that a culture may try to feminize men, like what we see in the West.
                    Those are physical differences. They only sometimes play a part in forming gender roles, but for the most part, physical differences are not accounted for when it comes to gender roles.
                    The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                      Those are physical differences. They only sometimes play a part in forming gender roles, but for the most part, physical differences are not accounted for when it comes to gender roles.
                      I may be misunderstanding. The fact that men have exterior plumbing and women have interior plumbing, or that women have breasts that can suckle a young one -- those are physical differences that definitely play into the gender role formation.

                      What am I missing?
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I may be misunderstanding. The fact that men have exterior plumbing and women have interior plumbing, or that women have breasts that can suckle a young one -- those are physical differences that definitely play into the gender role formation.

                        What am I missing?
                        Again, I think we're having different definitions of gender roles. Gender roles determine how a person of a particular gender ought to behave. Physical differences account for biological roles, not "gender" roles.
                        The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                          Again, I think we're having different definitions of gender roles.
                          OK, do you disagree with - Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity?

                          Gender roles determine how a person of a particular gender ought to behave.
                          I know it's been a while since I've taken my psychology classes, but I'm pretty sure the gender roles are how persons of a particular sex ought to behave.

                          Physical differences account for biological roles, not "gender" roles.
                          Ok, you may have cited your foundation for this, but I missed it -- on what are you basing this? (And I completely understand that psychology - one of the SOFTER "sciences" - seems to constantly be changing)

                          Caring for a baby would be a gender role - but men can do that, too. They're just need not to try breast feeding.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            OK, do you disagree with - Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity?



                            I know it's been a while since I've taken my psychology classes, but I'm pretty sure the gender roles are how persons of a particular sex ought to behave.



                            Ok, you may have cited your foundation for this, but I missed it -- on what are you basing this? (And I completely understand that psychology - one of the SOFTER "sciences" - seems to constantly be changing)

                            Caring for a baby would be a gender role - but men can do that, too. They're just need not to try breast feeding.
                            Range of characteristics that do not involve physiological characteristics. Refer to the article I posted earlier.
                            The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dante View Post
                              Because it doesn't matter what you asked and said.
                              Why are you on an internet forum then?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                                Why are you on an internet forum then?
                                It doesn't matter why I am on an internet forum.
                                The fact that science cannot make any pronouncement about ethical principles has been misinterpreted as indicating that there are no such principles; while in fact the search for truth presupposes ethics. - Karl Popper, 1987

                                Comment

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