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Should Liberals Embrace School Choice? Vouchers?

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  • #46
    Frank, your tax dollars go to fund Duke Divinity students
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Frank, your tax dollars go to fund Duke Divinity students
      Please document. Duke is a private university. As far as I know the only possible Federal program available to Duke student are loan programs available to university education in general regardless of major. I probably may or may not approve of this for Divinity students, but I do not know all the criteria for these loans.

      Further note, students admitted to the Divinity School is not restricted to any one church nor religion, and may admit Muslims, Buddhist, or humanist like Unitarian Universalists. I believe that for Duke Divinity School to eligible to participate in any program it cannot discriminate on the basis of religion for admittance to the programs. I believe they do not discriminate for admittance to the Duke Divinity program, staff are from different religions, and the courses include material on different religions.

      As far as I know there is no direct financial aid to the Duke Divinity School itself.

      So far, you continue to respond to the posts, and jumped around all over the place.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-03-2015, 09:15 AM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        This is FALSE.
        No, it's not.

        The Philosophy of Humanism is specifically that Human Will is the only source of guidance, morals and ethics for humanity, This is not taught in any public school that I know of. Your bogus references to the Humanist Manifesto refer to social ideals for human society, and not Humanist Philosophy. These social ideals in the Humanist Manifesto are common ideals of many religions and civilization in general.

        Public School systems do not endorse humanist philosophy.
        These "ideals" have replaced the Christian ideals which were previously taught. And humanism is, indeed, a religion.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          This is FALSE. The Philosophy of Humanism is specifically that Human Will is the only source of guidance, morals and ethics for humanity, This is not taught in any public school that I know of. Your bogus references to the Humanist Manifesto refer to social ideals for human society, and not Humanist Philosophy. These social ideals in the Humanist Manifesto are common ideals of many religions and civilization in general.

          Public School systems do not endorse humanist philosophy.
          "Education is thus a most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism. What can the theistic Sunday-school, meeting for an hour once a week, and teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?"
          Charles Francis Potter (a signatory of the 1930 Humanist Manifesto I), Humanism: A New Religion (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1930), p. 128
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            "Education is thus a most powerful ally of Humanism, and every American public school is a school of Humanism. What can the theistic Sunday-school, meeting for an hour once a week, and teaching only a fraction of the children, do to stem the tide of a five-day program of humanistic teaching?"
            Charles Francis Potter (a signatory of the 1930 Humanist Manifesto I), Humanism: A New Religion (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1930), p. 128
            So what?!?!?! This is a claim by a Unitarian Humanist, and not any public school system endorsing humanism.

            It is obvious from the Humanist view that educated and more informed people turn to humanism, but again this is not the policy of any public education system. If you believe this is true, please provide sources. Would you than reject education because this may be true?
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-03-2015, 10:09 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              So what?!?!?!
              Sew buttons on your underwear. (my little sister used to say that. )

              This is a claim by a Unitarian Humanist,
              ...who was an actual signatory of the Humanist Manifesto, Frank Not "just a Unitarian Humanist".

              and not any public school system endorsing humanism.
              There are lots more claims like that, Frank. And when you look at what is being taught in public schools, it's FAR more related to humanism than any other religion.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Sew buttons on your underwear. (my little sister used to say that. )

                ...who was an actual signatory of the Humanist Manifesto, Frank Not "just a Unitarian Humanist".

                There are lots more claims like that, Frank. And when you look at what is being taught in public schools, it's FAR more related to humanism than any other religion.
                Lots of claims!?!?!?! Please provide references that any public school system endorses humanist philosophy.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Lots of claims!?!?!?! Please provide references that any public school system endorses humanist philosophy.
                  Please provide directions to the mess hall in the UCMJ.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    No, it's not.



                    These "ideals" have replaced the Christian ideals which were previously taught. And humanism is, indeed, a religion.
                    Humanism is indeed a religion, but you have failed to reference any public school system that endorses humanism. Still waiting . . .

                    Please, document which of the ideals that are common with the Humanist Manifesto that Public schools endorse that would be contrary to your religious belief or any religious belief.

                    The one ideal that may be contrary to Christianity is the separation of religion and state, particularly if you believe in Theocratic Christianity, or a form of Theonomy. It is true that the US Constitution, Supreme Court decisions, Public school systems and the Humanist Manifesto support the separation of religion and state.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Please provide directions to the mess hall in the UCMJ.
                      Please, Please provide references that any public school system endorses humanist philosophy.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Please document. Duke is a private university. As far as I know the only possible Federal program available to Duke student are loan programs available to university education in general regardless of major. I probably may or may not approve of this for Divinity students, but I do not know all the criteria for these loans.
                        Source: https://divinity.duke.edu/sites/divinity.duke.edu/files/documents/financial-aid/FAPoliciesProcedures.pdf


                        Types of Financial Aid

                        Federal

                        - Perkins Loans Based on federal need and Limits: $8,000/yr. max for graduate student, $60,000 aggregate for graduate students
                        Interest: None in school; 5% during repayment
                        Repayment: 9 month grace period before repayment begins; 10 year standard repayment period

                        - Unsubsidized Direct Loan The Budget Control Act of 2011 eliminated subsidized loan eligibility for graduate and professional students for loan periods/periods of enrollment beginning on or after July 1, 2012. Limits: $20,500.00 per year; $138,500 aggregate limit for graduate students.
                        Interest: 6.8% fixed rate; while in school may be paid or accrued and capitalized
                        Repayment: 6-month grace period on payments of principal only; 10 year standard repayment period, no pre-payment penalty

                        - Graduate Plus Loan
                        The Federal Graduate PLUS Loan is a low-interest loan used to borrow additional funds up to the total cost of attendance, less other financial aid received. This loan is available to graduate and professional students.
                        Limits: up to cost of education
                        Interest: 7.9%
                        Repayment: Repayment begins sixty days after the final loan disbursement. Graduate students will automatically be granted an in-school deferment as long as they are enrolled at least half-time. A credit check is required.

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        Further note, students admitted to the Divinity School is not restricted to any one church nor religion, and may admit Muslims, Buddhist, or humanist like Unitarian Universalists.
                        So? Your tax dollars still go to teaching religion classes that you don't believe in.

                        I believe that for Duke Divinity School to eligible to participate in any program it cannot discriminate on the basis of religion for admittance to the programs. I believe they do not discriminate for admittance to the Duke Divinity program, staff are from different religions, and the courses include material on different religions.
                        So what? They still teach a vast majority of Christian based classes paid for by Federal student loans, which come from your tax dollars.

                        As far as I know there is no direct financial aid to the Duke Divinity School itself.
                        Well, now you know that there is.

                        So far, you continue to respond to the posts, and jumped around all over the place.
                        No I didn't.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Please, Please provide references that any public school system endorses humanist philosophy.
                          Frank, can you provide references that public school systems endorsed Christianity?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            The one ideal that may be contrary to Christianity is the separation of religion and state....
                            Actually, in it's unpolluted form, this was very much in harmony with Christianity, as it was addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association by then President Thomas Jefferson.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              Source: https://divinity.duke.edu/sites/divinity.duke.edu/files/documents/financial-aid/FAPoliciesProcedures.pdf


                              Types of Financial Aid

                              Federal

                              - Perkins Loans Based on federal need and Limits: $8,000/yr. max for graduate student, $60,000 aggregate for graduate students
                              Interest: None in school; 5% during repayment
                              Repayment: 9 month grace period before repayment begins; 10 year standard repayment period

                              - Unsubsidized Direct Loan The Budget Control Act of 2011 eliminated subsidized loan eligibility for graduate and professional students for loan periods/periods of enrollment beginning on or after July 1, 2012. Limits: $20,500.00 per year; $138,500 aggregate limit for graduate students.
                              Interest: 6.8% fixed rate; while in school may be paid or accrued and capitalized
                              Repayment: 6-month grace period on payments of principal only; 10 year standard repayment period, no pre-payment penalty

                              - Graduate Plus Loan
                              The Federal Graduate PLUS Loan is a low-interest loan used to borrow additional funds up to the total cost of attendance, less other financial aid received. This loan is available to graduate and professional students.
                              Limits: up to cost of education
                              Interest: 7.9%
                              Repayment: Repayment begins sixty days after the final loan disbursement. Graduate students will automatically be granted an in-school deferment as long as they are enrolled at least half-time. A credit check is required.

                              © Copyright Original Source





                              So? Your tax dollars still go to teaching religion classes that you don't believe in.
                              All universities teach classes on religion, no problem including Duke. The Duke University Divinity School does not teach Divinity concerning any one church or religion. It has students of different religions and beliefs, and courses that cover the different religions and philosophies including humanism. I have no problem with this school allowing students to receive Perkins Loans.

                              So what? They still teach a vast majority of Christian based classes paid for by Federal student loans, which come from your tax dollars.
                              It is not a matter of a majority. It is a matter of the nature of the program, and this is true of ALL universities. The Duke Divinity School is not affiliated with one particular church nor religion.



                              Well, now you know that there is.
                              False, Loans do not represent direct financial aid to the school itself. After talking to my friends at Anathoth Garden who are Divinity students it is perfectly clear that the Duke Divinity School is not affiliated with any one Church or Religion. No problem.





                              No I didn't.
                              Correct, you did not respond to many posts after jumping all over the place.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                All universities teach classes on religion, no problem including Duke. The Duke University Divinity School does not teach Divinity concerning any one church or religion.
                                Yes they do!!

                                Source: https://divinity.duke.edu/about/mission


                                Duke Divinity School’s mission is to engage in spiritually disciplined and academically rigorous education in service and witness to the Triune God in the midst of the church, the academy, and the world. We strive to cultivate a vibrant community through theological education on Scripture, engagement with the living Christian tradition, and attention to and reflection on contemporary contexts in order to form leaders for faithful Christian ministries.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                According to the link I cited above, Duke Divinity has the following degrees:

                                Degree Programs
                                •Master of Divinity (M.Div.) — ordinarily of three academic years
                                •Master of Arts in Christian Practice (M.A.C.P.) — ordinarily of two academic years
                                •Master of Theological Studies (M.T.S.) — ordinarily of two academic years
                                •Master of Arts in Christian Studies (M.A.C.S.) — ordinarily of one academic year
                                •Master of Theology (Th.M.) — a one-year program beyond the basic degree
                                •Doctor of Ministry (D.Min.) — two academic years of coursework followed by a period of research and writing, ordinarily of one to two additional years
                                •Doctor of Theology (Th.D.) — ordinarily a four- to five-year program


                                It has students of different religions and beliefs, and courses that cover the different religions and philosophies including humanism.
                                No it doesn't. Here is the Spring course list:

                                https://divinity.duke.edu/sites/divi...seSchedule.pdf

                                I have no problem with this school allowing students to receive Perkins Loans.
                                The primary focus of the school is:

                                Source: https://divinity.duke.edu/about


                                One of 13 seminaries founded and supported by the United Methodist Church, the school has from its beginnings been ecumenical in aspiration, teaching, and practice. With many diverse theological perspectives represented here, students find common ground through immersion in Scripture and the church’s tradition for addressing the challenges of faith in contemporary contexts.

                                © Copyright Original Source





                                It is not a matter of a majority. It is a matter of the nature of the program, and this is true of ALL universities. The Duke Divinity School is not affiliated with one particular church nor religion.

                                How does that shoe taste Frank?

                                Source: https://divinity.duke.edu/about


                                One of 13 seminaries founded and supported by the United Methodist Church

                                © Copyright Original Source




                                False, Loans do not represent direct financial aid to the school itself.
                                Yes they do! As part of the operating budget, student loans are listed as a source of operating income.

                                After talking to my friends at Anathoth Garden who are Divinity students it is perfectly clear that the Duke Divinity School is not affiliated with any one Church or Religion. No problem.
                                Then your friends don't know what they are talking about in this regard either.

                                Correct, you did not respond to many posts after jumping all over the place.
                                I've jumped nowhere. I laughed at you because you live in North Carolina and you pay taxes in North Carolina. And Duke Divinity College is located in North Carolina, is affiliated with the United Methodist Church, and takes taxpayer money for operating expenses to teach students about Christianity.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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