Should Liberals Embrace School Choice? Vouchers?

[KingsGambit]

Well, a lot of this has to do with discipline. I was almost always in a class of 30-32 children, and our teacher never had any trouble controlling the class. We respected our teachers.

I'm not thinking in terms of a class totally out of control; I just mean that once you get above a high number, it's easier for some kids to just kind of fade into the background and tune out (I was this kid in high school. I would be playing calculator games in math class or drawing.) The sad thing is you can't force anybody to work or learn though. Accepting that is a hard thing.



But I'm asking for actual evidence from somebody other than the teachers unions that X number of students is the ideal.[/QUOTE]

I do have a few years experience teaching; I hope it would count for something. (I have never had any association with any teachers' unions, either.) I doubt we can come up with an exact number; it probably depends on exactly how the teacher operates, the student makeup, any number of factors. In general, though, I feel comfortable saying keeping class size manageable is an important factor.

[Cow Poke]

I'm not thinking in terms of a class totally out of control; I just mean that once you get above a high number, it's easier for some kids to just kind of fade into the background and tune out (I was this kid in high school. I would be playing calculator games in math class or drawing.) The sad thing is you can't force anybody to work or learn though. Accepting that is a hard thing.

I'm already backing up.

I do have a few years experience teaching;

So do I, but yours is probably in this millennium.

I hope it would count for something. (I have never had any association with any teachers' unions, either.) I doubt we can come up with an exact number; it probably depends on exactly how the teacher operates, the student makeup, any number of factors. In general, though, I feel comfortable saying keeping class size manageable is an important factor.

I cited some stuff that referred to K-grade 3, I think.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

I really don't think it is.

...but it is. Even if I were to grant, for the sake of argument, that these people were wrong to believe that class size reduction will improve education, that doesn't change the fact that they do believe it, and that this belief is a significant reason for their advocacy of smaller classes.

Is there any actual evidence of that? If so, what's the optimum number of students?

There's a good bit of evidence for it. The most cited study on the subject is probably the Tenessee STAR research: http://www.princeton.edu/futureofchi...s/05_02_08.pdf

As with anything, there are those scholars who find the study unconvincing, or whose own research has not shown a statistical advantage in smaller class sizes. However, the consensus amongst education researchers seems to be that smaller class size does have a significant positive effect on learning.

But you are fine with the public education system which is teaching the religion of humanism.

I was publicly educated in a pretty Blue state, but I was never taught "the religion of humanism." Nor have I seen it appear in the curricula of any of my students.

[Cow Poke]

...but it is. Even if I were to grant, for the sake of argument, that these people were wrong to believe that class size reduction will improve education, that doesn't change the fact that they do believe it, and that this belief is a significant reason for their advocacy of smaller classes.

I already backed up.

There's a good bit of evidence for it. The most cited study on the subject is probably the Tenessee STAR research: http://www.princeton.edu/futureofchi...s/05_02_08.pdf

I think that was referred to in the link I provided. If not, it's one of the sites I looked at after posting what I did.

As with anything, there are those scholars who find the study unconvincing, or whose own research has not shown a statistical advantage in smaller class sizes. However, the consensus amongst education researchers seems to be that smaller class size does have a significant positive effect on learning.

Yeah

I was publicly educated in a pretty Blue state, but I was never taught "the religion of humanism." Nor have I seen it appear in the curricula of any of my students.

You weren't taught it as "the religion of humanism", but I'm pretty sure you were taught the concepts of humanism, whether you realized it or not.

[rogue06]

OK, here's some evidence.

Source: centerforpubliceducation.org

Smaller classes in the early grades (K-3) can boost student academic achievement;
A class size of no more than 18 students per teacher is required to produce the greatest benefits;
A program spanning grades K-3 will produce more benefits than a program that reaches students in only one or two of the primary grades;
Minority and low-income students show even greater gains when placed in small classes in the primary grades;
The experience and preparation of teachers is a critical factor in the success or failure of class size reduction programs;
Reducing class size will have little effect without enough classrooms and well-qualified teachers; and
Supports, such as professional development for teachers and a rigorous curriculum, enhance the effect of reduced class size on academic achievement.
- See more at: http://www.centerforpubliceducation.....CMsIC5c4.dpuf

© Copyright Original Source

And I think I realize why I resisted this --- class discipline ain't what it used to be. We used to have "study hall" with one teacher overseeing 50+ students. I can't even imagine that happening in the grade school level these days.

Yet in Japan and South Korea, two countries who's education systems are held up as exemplary, they have classrooms with an average of over 30 students

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[Cow Poke]

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public classroom by teachers that correctly perceive their role as proselytizers of a new faith which will replace the rotting corpse of Christianity."
John J. Dunphy, Humanist Magazine, January-February 1983

[Cow Poke]

Yet in Japan and South Korea, two countries who's education systems are held up as exemplary, they have classrooms with an average of over 30 students

And I bet that goes back to what I said earlier -- discipline. Can you even IMAGINE a Japanese or Korean kid flipping off their teacher, or telling them to go to hell?

Can you even IMAGINE the parent of one of these kids running up to the school to scream at the teacher?

[Cow Poke]

And I think I realize why I resisted this --- class discipline ain't what it used to be. We used to have "study hall" with one teacher overseeing 50+ students. I can't even imagine that happening in the grade school level these days.

I had temporarily forgotten that my teaching career (such as it was) was way back in the early 80's, and it was pretty easy to manage a class. HOWEVER, I did another stint as a teacher in the late 90's and was ASTONISHED at the lack of discipline, and rotten attitude of many of the students.

I remember very clearly an exchange I had with a young man I identified as the ring leader in one of the problem classes - and I decided to make an example of him by sending him to the principal.

He stood up very defiantly and said, "you CAN'T". I was surprised, and asked, "what do you mean, I can't".

He pointed to a large placard over the blackboard which very clearly spelled out the "progressive discipline" to which I had to adhere, and a first violation called for a polite verbal rebuff, and escalated a little at a time so that AFTER 5 other offenses/steps, THEN I could send him to the principal's office.

He knew EXACTLY how far he could go without getting sent to the office.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

You weren't taught it as "the religion of humanism", but I'm pretty sure you were taught the concepts of humanism, whether you realized it or not.

I can honestly say that not one of the 15 tenets asserted on that page was taught in the public schools I attended; nor have I seen any hint of such a thing in the curricula of any of my students.

[Cow Poke]

Meanwhile, an interesting idea in the NYTimes.

Did you CATCH THAT?!?!?! The NEW YORK TIMES!!!!!

Source: NYTimes

Diverse figures including Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York and Bill Gates have coalesced around a new idea: why not increase class sizes for the best teachers and use the resulting budgetary savings to pay these best teachers more and to help train educators who need improvement? Yes, each class might be bigger on average but at least each child would stand a better chance of having a great teacher, which would-be reformers say is more important.

© Copyright Original Source

That makes WAY too much sense!

[Cow Poke]

I can honestly say that not one of the 15 tenets asserted on that page was taught in the public schools I attended; nor have I seen any hint of such a thing in the curricula of any of my students.

Wow.

And here's the revised document - Humanist Manifesto II

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Wow.

And here's the revised document - Humanist Manifesto II

That one's a little more productive. The 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, and 11th tenets in that document are similar to attitudes presented or taught when I was in public school. Of course, I don't really think there's anything intrinsically "humanist" about those particular tenets, as they can be found in a great many different religions, including many expressions of Christianity.

[rogue06]

And I bet that goes back to what I said earlier -- discipline. Can you even IMAGINE a Japanese or Korean kid flipping off their teacher, or telling them to go to hell?

Can you even IMAGINE the parent of one of these kids running up to the school to scream at the teacher?

A friend of mine who I have lost contact with over the years grew up in South Korea right after the Korean War. While I can imagine things may have changed substantially since that time she used to talk about how the kids weren't afraid that their teachers would tell their parents about any misbehavior. What terrified them is that the parents would tell their teachers about misbehavior at home!













1. Her parents were deemed "rich" because her father owned a bicycle. She mentioned how jealous that her friends would get when her father would give her and her sister a ride to school when the weather was particularly nasty.

[KingsGambit]

I cited some stuff that referred to K-grade 3, I think.

I'm not familiar with this age group at all just to be honest. I'm sure it's more important at a younger level, at least, that makes intuitive sense...

[shunyadragon]

But you are fine with the public education system which is teaching the religion of humanism.

This is FALSE. The Philosophy of Humanism is specifically that Human Will is the only source of guidance, morals and ethics for humanity, This is not taught in any public school that I know of. Your bogus references to the Humanist Manifesto refer to social ideals for human society, and not Humanist Philosophy. These social ideals in the Humanist Manifesto are common ideals of many religions and civilization in general.

Public School systems do not endorse humanist philosophy.