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Should Liberals Embrace School Choice? Vouchers?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, how bout a tax credit, Frank? I give to charitable organizations for which I get a tax credit. Basically, I'm supporting, in my case, religious institutions. So, I get a tax break for sending my kids to a Christian school.

    Problem?
    The problem with the proposed voucher plans is that tax funds intended for public schools, would be used for religious schools. The charitable contributions deduction for state and Federal taxes is a uniform system where the donor does not get any compensation from the non-profit organization. In the case of schools the families would be getting compensation from the funding. This is one of the issues in the North Carolina Law, but not the major ones that made the Law unconstitutional in the lower courts.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      In the "Privilege" thread, there seems to be a lot of concern about "fairness".

      It was pointed out, for example, that the liberals pretty much control the education system in this country. (is that in dispute?)

      If the GOAL for liberals is to end "privilege", why not start with the public school system?
      Why not give parents a choice - by voucher or whatever - to send their kids to the best schools available, even if those are private schools?

      Why can't "pro-cholce" liberals be pro-choice about education?
      Because they are liberals, and their leaders declare that vouchers are EEEEVVVVUUUULLLLL!!!!
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        You are not being discriminated against. The separation of church and state is a principal that opposes the use of tax dollars to be used to support religious schools. Religious schools teach a religious classes, which would mean my tax dollars would be used to support a religion I do not believe in.
        Guess what Frank... Public colleges teach religion classes and your tax dollars pay for them... And in your home state, Duke Divinity school uses federal funds via student loans for their students. So dalai-lama-bday.jpg
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          The problem with the proposed voucher plans is that tax funds intended for public schools,
          That's where your thinking is nutty. The money should not be for public schools, it should be for education for children.

          would be used for religious schools. The charitable contributions deduction for state and Federal taxes is a uniform system where the donor does not get any compensation from the non-profit organization. In the case of schools the families would be getting compensation from the funding. This is one of the issues in the North Carolina Law, but not the major ones that made the Law unconstitutional in the lower courts.
          No, Frank, they wouldn't be getting any more compensation that people who send their kids to heathen schools.

          Why are you pro-choice liberals so anti-choice?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            It is not a matter of freedom of expression. You are free to worship as you choose, and send your students to the school of your choice, but the separation of church and state prevents the use of public funds to support religious institutions. Religious schools teach a religious classes, which would mean my tax dollars would be used to support a religion I do not believe in.
            So, in Frankyworld, you would oppose any use of tax dollars for ANY religious education, regardless of the religion?
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              . . snip . . . and meet the same standards and Curriculum as public schools. snip
              The problem is the public schools are not achieving the standards supposedly required. That is the reason for the outcry for choice. The teachers unions are not allowing quality education.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #22
                I found interest in the same points from the OP as Cow Poke.

                They want to dismantle public education altogether

                I entirely agree with CP that this seems like completely unfounded fearmongering.

                and run schools as businesses, judged as “successes” or “failures” based on abstract data taken from high-stakes standardized test scores.

                This seems particularly dubious, since the greatest opposition to standardized testing and the Common Core which I have encountered in the parents of my students (as well as in friends and acquaintances) has come from political conservatives.

                This pits parents against teachers

                Even if we accept the dubious premise that Education Choice proponents want to instate standardized testing for the purpose of teacher evaluations, it does not follow that this "pits parents against teachers."

                and it ultimately sidelines already marginalized children of immigrant families, poor children and/or children of color.

                I can understand apprehension at basing teacher evaluations entirely upon student performance. I am (in my humblest of opinions) a rather good teacher. However, I have a number of students who, despite showing immense improvement under my tutelage, still struggle with work which is at or below the normal standard for their grade level. Similarly, my best friend teaches Special Education; he is an excellent teacher, but it would be entirely unreasonable to ever expect that his students will perform well, on average, in standardized tests.

                I can similarly understand concerns for students from immigrant families (especially non-English speaking families) and from poor families. In general, the parents of these students are often not equipped to help their children in the same way that middle-class, English-speaking parents do. Even among college-educated parents, you might be surprised how many get flustered attempting to help their grade-school children through basic mathematical concepts. I can't tell you how many parents I've spoken to who can't figure out how to help their kids with concepts as simple as Fractions.

                All that said, advocating choice in education is decidedly not the same thing as advocating the complete erasure of public schooling. No one is asking for the elimination of public schools. What is being proposed is simply the ability to redirect some public education funds towards private schooling.

                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                I don't see anything mentioned about doing something to improve the actual education that the students are getting.
                Numbers 1, 2, 3, 5, and 9 all seem like they would directly affect the actual education that the students are getting. Whether those effects are an improvement or not could, of course, be debated; however, a charitable reading would imply that the Grassroots Education Movement, at the very least, believes they would directly improve education.
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  The problem is the public schools are not achieving the standards supposedly required. That is the reason for the outcry for choice. The teachers unions are not allowing quality education.
                  And I think that last part is the crux of the whole thing. The teachers unions - like any other unions - exist to keep the maximum number of people employed at the highest pay possible. The reason for the smaller class size is that it requires more teachers. Meanwhile, Johnny still can't read.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    So, in Frankyworld, you would oppose any use of tax dollars for ANY religious education, regardless of the religion?
                    Yes.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      The reason for the smaller class size is that it requires more teachers.
                      That's a bit of an overstatement. Certainly that is one of the reasons teachers unions advocate for smaller class size, but it is not the only reason, nor is it necessarily the strongest reason. Smaller class sizes do promote better education. I'm not a fan of unions, but I advocate for smaller class sizes all the time.
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                        That's a bit of an overstatement.
                        I really don't think it is.

                        Certainly that is one of the reasons teachers unions advocate for smaller class size, but it is not the only reason, nor is it necessarily the strongest reason. Smaller class sizes do promote better education. I'm not a fan of unions, but I advocate for smaller class sizes all the time.
                        Is there any actual evidence of that? If so, what's the optimum number of students?
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          So, in Frankyworld, you would oppose any use of tax dollars for ANY religious education, regardless of the religion?
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Yes.
                          But you are fine with the public education system which is teaching the religion of humanism.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I do think I'm qualified to speak on this one: Larger classes are more difficult to manage and make it much more difficult to spend individual instruction time on any one student. It's not impossible to succeed with a larger class but you have much more options with a smaller class, including group activities where every student can have an opportunity to speak and be heard by the class.

                            Class size is a factor I have taken into account in looking for schools for my own step-child. Her needs would not be served as well if she was in a position where she would be able to fade into the crowd.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              I do think I'm qualified to speak on this one: Larger classes are more difficult to manage and make it much more difficult to spend individual instruction time on any one student.
                              Well, a lot of this has to do with discipline. I was almost always in a class of 30-32 children, and our teacher never had any trouble controlling the class. We respected our teachers.

                              It's not impossible to succeed with a larger class but you have much more options with a smaller class, including group activities where every student can have an opportunity to speak and be heard by the class.
                              But I'm asking for actual evidence from somebody other than the teachers unions that X number of students is the ideal.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                But I'm asking for actual evidence from somebody other than the teachers unions that X number of students is the ideal.
                                OK, here's some evidence.

                                Source: centerforpubliceducation.org


                                Smaller classes in the early grades (K-3) can boost student academic achievement;
                                A class size of no more than 18 students per teacher is required to produce the greatest benefits;
                                A program spanning grades K-3 will produce more benefits than a program that reaches students in only one or two of the primary grades;
                                Minority and low-income students show even greater gains when placed in small classes in the primary grades;
                                The experience and preparation of teachers is a critical factor in the success or failure of class size reduction programs;
                                Reducing class size will have little effect without enough classrooms and well-qualified teachers; and
                                Supports, such as professional development for teachers and a rigorous curriculum, enhance the effect of reduced class size on academic achievement.
                                - See more at: http://www.centerforpubliceducation.....CMsIC5c4.dpuf

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                And I think I realize why I resisted this --- class discipline ain't what it used to be. We used to have "study hall" with one teacher overseeing 50+ students. I can't even imagine that happening in the grade school level these days.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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