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Journalist who's lived in both Israel and South Africa blows apart "apartheid" claims

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  • Journalist who's lived in both Israel and South Africa blows apart "apartheid" claims

    This guy reported in South Africa decades ago, and interviewed Nelson Mandela in prison. He now lives in Israel, so he has a unique perspective from both sides here. Here he puts an end to the frequent accusation that Israel is an apartheid state, and that while Israel does have its problems, people who make this accusation don't seem to understand what it really means.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...tate?CMP=fb_gu
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    This guy reported in South Africa decades ago, and interviewed Nelson Mandela in prison. He now lives in Israel, so he has a unique perspective from both sides here. Here he puts an end to the frequent accusation that Israel is an apartheid state, and that while Israel does have its problems, people who make this accusation don't seem to understand what it really means.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...tate?CMP=fb_gu
    Nice, but does not explain the history of the wall, ethnic cleansing from some areas of Palestinian villages and farm land, and Jewish settlements on Palestinian land.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      The article does not purport to prove that Israel is paradisaical. It is just not guilty of "apartheid." Understand that?
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Nice, but does not explain the history of the wall, ethnic cleansing from some areas of Palestinian villages and farm land, and Jewish settlements on Palestinian land.
        You've completely missed the point, good sir.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          You've completely missed the point, good sir.
          Par for the course with shunyadragon.

          Expect him to scream "airball!" in response to my post.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            The article does not purport to prove that Israel is paradisaical. It is just not guilty of "apartheid." Understand that?
            By the evidence, Israel is clearly guilty of apartheid, and ethnic cleansing.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              Par for the course with shunyadragon.

              Expect him to scream "airball!" in response to my post.
              air ball!!!
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                You've completely missed the point, good sir.
                No, the point is clear.

                Source: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-makdisi-israel-apartheid-20140518-story.html


                "Apartheid" isn't just a term of insult; it's a word with a very specific legal meaning, as defined by the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, adopted by the U.N. General Assembly in 1973 and ratified by most United Nations member states (Israel and the United States are exceptions, to their shame).

                According to Article II of that convention, the term applies to acts "committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." Denying those others the right to life and liberty, subjecting them to arbitrary arrest, expropriating their property, depriving them of the right to leave and return to their country or the right to freedom of movement and of residence, creating separate reserves and ghettos for the members of different racial groups, preventing mixed marriages — these are all examples of the crime of apartheid specifically mentioned in the convention.

                Seeing the reference to racial groups here, some people might think of race in a putatively biological sense or as a matter of skin color. That is a rather simplistic (and dated) way of thinking about racial identity. More to the point, however, the operative definition of "racial identity" is provided in the 1965 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (to which Israel is a signatory), on which the apartheid convention explicitly draws.

                “And so it goes in all domains of life, from birth to death: a systematic, vigilantly policed separation of the two populations.”
                -
                There, the term "racial discrimination" is defined as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

                A few basic facts are now in order.

                The Jewish state (for so it identifies itself, after all) maintains a system of formal and informal housing segregation both in Israel and in the occupied territories. It's obvious, of course, that Jewish settlements in the West Bank aren't exactly bursting with Palestinians. In Israel itself, however, hundreds of communities have been established for Jewish residents on land expropriated from Palestinians, in which segregation is maintained, for example, by admissions committees empowered to use ethnic criteria long since banned in the United States, or by the inability of Palestinian citizens to access land held exclusively for the Jewish people by the state-sanctioned Jewish National Fund.

                Jewish residents of the occupied territories enjoy various rights and privileges denied to their Palestinian neighbors. While the former enjoy the protections of Israeli civil law, the latter are subject to the harsh provisions of military law. So, while their Jewish neighbors come and go freely, West Bank Palestinians are subject to arbitrary arrest and detention, and to the denial of freedom of movement; they are frequently barred from access to educational or healthcare facilities, Christian and Muslim sites for religious worship, and so on.

                Meanwhile, Palestinian citizens of Israel must contend with about 50 state laws and bills that, according to the Palestinian-Israeli human rights organization Adalah, either privilege Jews or directly discriminate against the Palestinian minority. One of the key components of Israel's nationality law, the Law of Return, for example, applies to Jews only, and excludes Palestinians, including Palestinians born in what is now the state of Israel. While Jewish citizens can move back and forth without interdiction, Israeli law expressly bars Palestinian citizens from bringing spouses from the occupied territories to live with them in Israel.

                The educational systems for the two populations in Israel (not to mention the occupied territories) are kept largely separate and unequal. While overcrowded Palestinian schools in Israel crumble, Jewish students are given access to more resources and curricular options.

                It is not legally possible in Israel for a Jewish citizen to marry a non-Jewish citizen. And a web of laws, regulations and military orders governing what kind of people can live in which particular spaces makes mixed marriages within the occupied territories, or across the pre-1967 border between Israel and the occupied territories, all but impossible.

                And so it goes in all domains of life, from birth to death: a systematic, vigilantly policed separation of the two populations and utter contempt for the principle of equality. One group — stripped of property and rights, expelled, humiliated, punished, demolished, imprisoned and at times driven to the edge of starvation (down to the meticulously calculated last calorie) — has withered. The other group — its freedom of movement and of development not merely unrestricted but actively encouraged — has flourished, and its religious and cultural symbols adorn the regalia of the state and are emblazoned on the state flag.

                The question is not whether the term "apartheid" applies here. It is why it should cause such an outcry when it is used.

                © Copyright Original Source



                http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...518-story.html
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-02-2015, 06:59 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have never equated The State of Israel with Apartheid.

                  I've only ever said that its not the Israel that Jesus Christ walked around in, and that Christians therefore shouldn't give military aid to them for religious reasons (doing it for that reason likely highly offends God), and that because of their ethnic cleanses and their horrible treatment of the Palestine civilians, they shouldn't be given any military aid for political reasons.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    I have never equated The State of Israel with Apartheid.

                    I've only ever said that its not the Israel that Jesus Christ walked around in, and that Christians therefore shouldn't give military aid to them for religious reasons (doing it for that reason likely highly offends God), and that because of their ethnic cleanses and their horrible treatment of the Palestine civilians, they shouldn't be given any military aid for political reasons.
                    Nonsense old friend. If Israel wanted to really ethnically cleanse they could have pushed all Arabs out of Israel proper, the West Bank and Gaza years ago. Stop with the unfounded hyperbole. And it is not Israel's fault that Gaza turned into a hell hole after they got self-rule.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      air ball!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        By the evidence, Israel is clearly guilty of apartheid, and ethnic cleansing.
                        Facts do not seem to get in the way of your foolishness do they?
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                          Facts do not seem to get in the way of your foolishness do they?
                          They never did...
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              Facts do not seem to get in the way of your foolishness do they?
                              No intelligible response to my reference.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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