Originally posted by firstfloor
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"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sam View Post"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostOk, so far so good.
Which all of these goals can be done, without being married (believe it or not). You don't even really need a boyfriend/girlfriend to make two of them possible.
Depending on what study you read. I've seen several articles, by the children of same sex couples, who say otherwise. What do they know though? They disagree with Sam so naturally, they have to be wrong.
Articles by children of same-sex couples are anecdotal evidence, not empirical evidence. One might as easily say that because children of opposite-sex couples write articles detailing poor childhoods that equates to empirical evidence that opposite-sex couples do a poorer job of rearing children.
Of course that would be crazy, which is why we don't rely on anecdotal evidence."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI have spent many hours (weeks, even) describing the various studies to folks on this board, including you. If the Crash hadn't taken it all, I'd link back to 'em. To date, you haven't provided anything empirical to back your claims. I'm sitting on past work, true enough, but you're sitting on no work."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostI thought Walt Disney died almost 50 years ago. What does the views of Walt Disney, have to do with the modern Disney company?"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostToo bad that Sociological studies often point in several directions. There's several studies out there that point out that the best environment, for children, is a traditional mom and dad, who get along with one another. These are often ignored and/or downplayed though because they don't say the right narrative.
We (most of the participants in threads of this theme) have been through this all before several times. At this point, it's like climate change: you either accept the consensus or you bring the hard data showing the consensus to be wrong. I certainly don't feel a compelling urge to unleash half a dozen citations again to no effect."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostRaising a developmentally-mature and happy set of children can be done without marriage, too. So it would be unwise to use that argument against my list of goals, as it equally works against your defined goal.
Articles by children of same-sex couples are anecdotal evidence, not empirical evidence. One might as easily say that because children of opposite-sex couples write articles detailing poor childhoods that equates to empirical evidence that opposite-sex couples do a poorer job of rearing children.
Liberal = good
Conservative = bad
and nothing will ever show you otherwise. I know it frustrates you to no end, but sociological studies are not nearly as empirical and scientific as physics, chemistry, or biology. These children (which you ignore because you don't like their narrative) talk about their desire to have a father/mother in their life and how they felt they were denied something growing up. I can think of several reasons, including the fact that your parents are the first real connection you ever make and their relationship, to each other, will affect you for much of your life. For example, did you know that if we take a couple and one of them came from a divorced family, they are twice as likely to get divorced as the couple that neither one of them came from a divorced family? Since no fault divorce has been going on since the 70's, we have some decent data on it. How long as gay marriage and adoption been going on? Are you going to deny that our parents don't have any sort of affect on us, that can last for the rest of our lives?
Of course that would be crazy, which is why we don't rely on anecdotal evidence."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI was just riffing of Tomorrowland; I haven't seen the movie, though I can't imagine it has a strong political theme. From what I've read, it's a tribute to Disney's "Build the Future You Want" mentality."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostIn terms of how they will do best though, it seems a traditional mom and dad, with both of them caring for one another, seems to be the best environment for them. Instead of Googling for articles you agree with, try to think for a chance and ask yourself why. I got several good reasons (but you'll ignore them because they don't say the right narrative that you want to hear).
Of course, when they cite studies that show their conclusions, those are ignored because they dare to disagree with you! Sorry Sam, I know how the game works with you and it is pointless to argue with you because as I said before. Your mind is already made up:
Liberal = good
Conservative = bad
and nothing will ever show you otherwise. I know it frustrates you to no end, but sociological studies are not nearly as empirical and scientific as physics, chemistry, or biology. These children (which you ignore because you don't like their narrative) talk about their desire to have a father/mother in their life and how they felt they were denied something growing up. I can think of several reasons, including the fact that your parents are the first real connection you ever make and their relationship, to each other, will affect you for much of your life. For example, did you know that if we take a couple and one of them came from a divorced family, they are twice as likely to get divorced as the couple that neither one of them came from a divorced family? Since no fault divorce has been going on since the 70's, we have some decent data on it. How long as gay marriage and adoption been going on? Are you going to deny that our parents don't have any sort of affect on us, that can last for the rest of our lives?
And I imagine the studies they have cited, don't count because they disagree with your narrative. I know you hate the fact that not everybody bows down and agrees with you, but there's a reason that not everybody does.
Show the studies that support your position or don't, it's no concern of mine. I'll respond to meritorious criticism and intelligent dissent; I have limited patience for poorly-constructed projection."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostI haven't seen the movie myself, so I can't say for sure, but Walt Disney has been dead for almost half a century now. The company, loves to slap the label, "Inspired by Walt Disney" to sell more of what they are trying to sell, but just because they have slapped that label on it doesn't mean that is actually what he believed either. Ever hear of 'marketing'?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI love it when you make this claim, Sam. I just can't understand why these guys continue to argue with you after that!"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostWhat Sam fails to understand is that people are not a collection of data sets. This article here, deals with this topic and gives us quite a bit of something about these children and their desire to have a mother/father in their life and how they feel they were denied something. Sam will ignore it and/or call it an 'anecdote' because he doesn't like the narrative it sells yet who is he to determine how they should feel?"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostSociological studies, while products of a "soft" science, are far more preferable and reliable to anecdote, which is what you were offering in return.
I hate to burst your fantasy bubble, but we are dealing with people's lives and not collections of data on a screen and it is an insult to them to dismiss their views and feeling because you don't like what they have to say. They were raised with gay parents and plenty of them have said that they felt they were missing something in their lives. Did you grow up with gay parents Sam? Did you feel as though you were missing something in your life? Who are you to determine how they should feel about it or not? People are not data and you really should stop treating them as though they are.
And the position of the American Sociological Association remains that sociological studies clearly show that children of same-sex partners are developmentally on par with children of opposite-sex partners. The only study I remember being offered to counter this consensus of studies was the Regnarus (spelling?) study, which was so poorly done that it would count Ted Haggard's kids as "children of a same-sex couple".
Show the studies that support your position or don't, it's no concern of mine. I'll respond to meritorious criticism and intelligent dissent; I have limited patience for poorly-constructed projection."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostAKA "HOW DARE THEY DISAGREE WITH ME!"
As I wrote, either offer substantial critiques of the relevant studies, offer something other than the Regnarus study to support your contention, or don't. My limited patience for inane projection has run dry, otherwise, and it's back to work for me."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostPeople are a collection of data sets. That doesn't diminish a person's individual experience but no one in her right mind would argue that important human emotions and activities can not be reduced to data sets. That's why Google and Facebook are worth billions of dollars."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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