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  • #91
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    I’m thinking of the really big picture of where civilisation is going based on how far we know it has come already. Our golden age is still ahead of us; not that there won’t be a few bumps in the road along the way.
    I wouldn't call the death of millions a 'bump in the road'. Again, how well have these dreams of utopia, turned out over the past century?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      I thought Walt Disney died almost 50 years ago. What does the views of Walt Disney, have to do with the modern Disney company?
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Ok, so far so good.

        Which all of these goals can be done, without being married (believe it or not). You don't even really need a boyfriend/girlfriend to make two of them possible.

        Depending on what study you read. I've seen several articles, by the children of same sex couples, who say otherwise. What do they know though? They disagree with Sam so naturally, they have to be wrong.
        Raising a developmentally-mature and happy set of children can be done without marriage, too. So it would be unwise to use that argument against my list of goals, as it equally works against your defined goal.

        Articles by children of same-sex couples are anecdotal evidence, not empirical evidence. One might as easily say that because children of opposite-sex couples write articles detailing poor childhoods that equates to empirical evidence that opposite-sex couples do a poorer job of rearing children.

        Of course that would be crazy, which is why we don't rely on anecdotal evidence.
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Sam View Post
          I have spent many hours (weeks, even) describing the various studies to folks on this board, including you. If the Crash hadn't taken it all, I'd link back to 'em. To date, you haven't provided anything empirical to back your claims. I'm sitting on past work, true enough, but you're sitting on no work.
          Too bad that Sociological studies often point in several directions. There's several studies out there that point out that the best environment, for children, is a traditional mom and dad, who get along with one another. These are often ignored and/or downplayed though because they don't say the right narrative.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            I thought Walt Disney died almost 50 years ago. What does the views of Walt Disney, have to do with the modern Disney company?
            I was just riffing of Tomorrowland; I haven't seen the movie, though I can't imagine it has a strong political theme. From what I've read, it's a tribute to Disney's "Build the Future You Want" mentality.
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              Too bad that Sociological studies often point in several directions. There's several studies out there that point out that the best environment, for children, is a traditional mom and dad, who get along with one another. These are often ignored and/or downplayed though because they don't say the right narrative.
              The consensus opinion of sociological studies -- especially longitudinal studies -- remains that children of same-sex partners are almost developmentally indistinguishable from children of opposite-sex partners (the former score slightly higher on traits like empathy and tolerance).

              We (most of the participants in threads of this theme) have been through this all before several times. At this point, it's like climate change: you either accept the consensus or you bring the hard data showing the consensus to be wrong. I certainly don't feel a compelling urge to unleash half a dozen citations again to no effect.
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                Raising a developmentally-mature and happy set of children can be done without marriage, too. So it would be unwise to use that argument against my list of goals, as it equally works against your defined goal.
                In terms of how they will do best though, it seems a traditional mom and dad, with both of them caring for one another, seems to be the best environment for them. Instead of Googling for articles you agree with, try to think for a chance and ask yourself why. I got several good reasons (but you'll ignore them because they don't say the right narrative that you want to hear).

                Articles by children of same-sex couples are anecdotal evidence, not empirical evidence. One might as easily say that because children of opposite-sex couples write articles detailing poor childhoods that equates to empirical evidence that opposite-sex couples do a poorer job of rearing children.
                Of course, when they cite studies that show their conclusions, those are ignored because they dare to disagree with you! Sorry Sam, I know how the game works with you and it is pointless to argue with you because as I said before. Your mind is already made up:

                Liberal = good
                Conservative = bad

                and nothing will ever show you otherwise. I know it frustrates you to no end, but sociological studies are not nearly as empirical and scientific as physics, chemistry, or biology. These children (which you ignore because you don't like their narrative) talk about their desire to have a father/mother in their life and how they felt they were denied something growing up. I can think of several reasons, including the fact that your parents are the first real connection you ever make and their relationship, to each other, will affect you for much of your life. For example, did you know that if we take a couple and one of them came from a divorced family, they are twice as likely to get divorced as the couple that neither one of them came from a divorced family? Since no fault divorce has been going on since the 70's, we have some decent data on it. How long as gay marriage and adoption been going on? Are you going to deny that our parents don't have any sort of affect on us, that can last for the rest of our lives?

                Of course that would be crazy, which is why we don't rely on anecdotal evidence.
                And I imagine the studies they have cited, don't count because they disagree with your narrative. I know you hate the fact that not everybody bows down and agrees with you, but there's a reason that not everybody does.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  I was just riffing of Tomorrowland; I haven't seen the movie, though I can't imagine it has a strong political theme. From what I've read, it's a tribute to Disney's "Build the Future You Want" mentality.
                  I haven't seen the movie myself, so I can't say for sure, but Walt Disney has been dead for almost half a century now. The company, loves to slap the label, "Inspired by Walt Disney" to sell more of what they are trying to sell, but just because they have slapped that label on it doesn't mean that is actually what he believed either. Ever hear of 'marketing'?
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    In terms of how they will do best though, it seems a traditional mom and dad, with both of them caring for one another, seems to be the best environment for them. Instead of Googling for articles you agree with, try to think for a chance and ask yourself why. I got several good reasons (but you'll ignore them because they don't say the right narrative that you want to hear).



                    Of course, when they cite studies that show their conclusions, those are ignored because they dare to disagree with you! Sorry Sam, I know how the game works with you and it is pointless to argue with you because as I said before. Your mind is already made up:

                    Liberal = good
                    Conservative = bad

                    and nothing will ever show you otherwise. I know it frustrates you to no end, but sociological studies are not nearly as empirical and scientific as physics, chemistry, or biology. These children (which you ignore because you don't like their narrative) talk about their desire to have a father/mother in their life and how they felt they were denied something growing up. I can think of several reasons, including the fact that your parents are the first real connection you ever make and their relationship, to each other, will affect you for much of your life. For example, did you know that if we take a couple and one of them came from a divorced family, they are twice as likely to get divorced as the couple that neither one of them came from a divorced family? Since no fault divorce has been going on since the 70's, we have some decent data on it. How long as gay marriage and adoption been going on? Are you going to deny that our parents don't have any sort of affect on us, that can last for the rest of our lives?



                    And I imagine the studies they have cited, don't count because they disagree with your narrative. I know you hate the fact that not everybody bows down and agrees with you, but there's a reason that not everybody does.
                    Sociological studies, while products of a "soft" science, are far more preferable and reliable to anecdote, which is what you were offering in return. And the position of the American Sociological Association remains that sociological studies clearly show that children of same-sex partners are developmentally on par with children of opposite-sex partners. The only study I remember being offered to counter this consensus of studies was the Regnarus (spelling?) study, which was so poorly done that it would count Ted Haggard's kids as "children of a same-sex couple".

                    Show the studies that support your position or don't, it's no concern of mine. I'll respond to meritorious criticism and intelligent dissent; I have limited patience for poorly-constructed projection.
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      I haven't seen the movie myself, so I can't say for sure, but Walt Disney has been dead for almost half a century now. The company, loves to slap the label, "Inspired by Walt Disney" to sell more of what they are trying to sell, but just because they have slapped that label on it doesn't mean that is actually what he believed either. Ever hear of 'marketing'?
                      Lilpixie how terrible of you to try and give Sam the facts he doesn't' want any facts to get in the way with what he wants to believe.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I love it when you make this claim, Sam. I just can't understand why these guys continue to argue with you after that!
                        What Sam fails to understand is that people are not a collection of data sets. This article here, deals with this topic and gives us quite a bit of something about these children and their desire to have a mother/father in their life and how they feel they were denied something. Sam will ignore it and/or call it an 'anecdote' because he doesn't like the narrative it sells yet who is he to determine how they should feel?
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          What Sam fails to understand is that people are not a collection of data sets. This article here, deals with this topic and gives us quite a bit of something about these children and their desire to have a mother/father in their life and how they feel they were denied something. Sam will ignore it and/or call it an 'anecdote' because he doesn't like the narrative it sells yet who is he to determine how they should feel?
                          People are a collection of data sets. That doesn't diminish a person's individual experience but no one in her right mind would argue that important human emotions and activities can not be reduced to data sets. That's why Google and Facebook are worth billions of dollars.
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            Sociological studies, while products of a "soft" science, are far more preferable and reliable to anecdote, which is what you were offering in return.
                            AKA "HOW DARE THEY DISAGREE WITH ME!"

                            I hate to burst your fantasy bubble, but we are dealing with people's lives and not collections of data on a screen and it is an insult to them to dismiss their views and feeling because you don't like what they have to say. They were raised with gay parents and plenty of them have said that they felt they were missing something in their lives. Did you grow up with gay parents Sam? Did you feel as though you were missing something in your life? Who are you to determine how they should feel about it or not? People are not data and you really should stop treating them as though they are.

                            And the position of the American Sociological Association remains that sociological studies clearly show that children of same-sex partners are developmentally on par with children of opposite-sex partners. The only study I remember being offered to counter this consensus of studies was the Regnarus (spelling?) study, which was so poorly done that it would count Ted Haggard's kids as "children of a same-sex couple".
                            Of course they do because they are pressured by the community to give that narrative and that is the narrative they will give. Besides, how well did they divide up the groups and how well did they account for variables? Did they include divorced couples among their opposite sex partners? How will did the couples, that were included in their studies, get along with one another? I don't see anybody doing that because they narrative might start to disagree. The position I actually maintain (and you ignore) is not just the sex of the parents are important, but the relationship between each parent is too. Did your 'studies' take the relationships into account too or did they just group them among sexual preference lines and that was it? My true position (not the strawman you have created) is that opposite sex couples, who get along with one another, is the best environment for children. Since you haven't touched my true argument, my argument remains standing. Now Sam, go ahead, include my second qualifier in there too.

                            Show the studies that support your position or don't, it's no concern of mine. I'll respond to meritorious criticism and intelligent dissent; I have limited patience for poorly-constructed projection.
                            AKA, you like that narrative and will not dare to question it. Now answer the question, did your study include how well the parents go along with one another, and divided them among those lines too, or not? From what you are saying, they didn't, but don't worry if you attack your strawman of my argument long enough, maybe it will become true!
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              AKA "HOW DARE THEY DISAGREE WITH ME!"
                              No, that would be the inner cry of someone clinging to anecdotal testimony even after it's normative value is refuted by empirical study.

                              As I wrote, either offer substantial critiques of the relevant studies, offer something other than the Regnarus study to support your contention, or don't. My limited patience for inane projection has run dry, otherwise, and it's back to work for me.
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                People are a collection of data sets. That doesn't diminish a person's individual experience but no one in her right mind would argue that important human emotions and activities can not be reduced to data sets. That's why Google and Facebook are worth billions of dollars.
                                No they are not Sam because you want your claims to be true, thus that is the claim you want to hear. Why do you ignore that the relationships between the parents are as important for the development of children as the sexual preference of the parents? Oh that's right, because if we started to break down things among those lines, the narrative wouldn't fit and thus you ignore it. See, if we include couples, who always are fighting with one another, that is going to bring down the stats for everybody because the true argument includes the relationship between husband and wife as well as the relationship between children. Why don't we start to include the relationships because I know (as well as I'm sure you do) that there is much research that does show the relationship between couples is important, for the overall development of children, as well. If mom and dad don't get along, that will skew the results. Believe it or not, I did go to college too and I do know how to poke holes in your studies and your data too. Did they include the relationship between parents or not?
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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