Ireland recovering from Theocracy.

[Sea of red]

Tradition must be cemented in something applicable to the 'here and now' in order for it to remain. Simply being tradition or being something that we've always done a certain way is not to me satisfactory, especially given that the world is changing whether we like it or not. Some things remain, others go away, while others still are discarded and then brought back.

While progress is not always good, tradition is not always justified.

[lilpixieofterror]

Tradition must be cemented in something applicable to the 'here and now' in order for it to remain. Simply being tradition or being something that we've always done a certain way is not to me satisfactory, especially given that the world is changing whether we like it or not. Some things remain, others go away, while others still are discarded and then brought back.

While progress is not always good, tradition is not always justified.

You mean like when I said:

"Sometimes this might mean we need to change such as getting rid of slavery or dealing with racism. Sometimes we need to stick to our guns such as attempts wipe out the family unit."

See, the issue many have with gay marriage has nothing to do with hatred of gays or anything like it, it has to do with something else.

[Sam]

You mean like when I said:

"Sometimes this might mean we need to change such as getting rid of slavery or dealing with racism. Sometimes we need to stick to our guns such as attempts wipe out the family unit."

See, the issue many have with gay marriage has nothing to do with hatred of gays or anything like it, it has to do with something else.

And the issue many have with gay marriage on the other side of the coin has nothing to do with hatred of families or love loose morals.

So the question is whether this is one of those issues to "stick to our guns" and, if so, for what purpose. I can understand the biblical or theological arguments; I can not understand the "wipe out the family unit" arguments.

[lilpixieofterror]

And the issue many have with gay marriage on the other side of the coin has nothing to do with hatred of families or love loose morals.

I don't ever recall saying it was, so what is that thing called again when you attack a pile of burning straw? Here, let us start here:

What is the goal of a marriage?

Start with this question and lets work our way from here.

So the question is whether this is one of those issues to "stick to our guns" and, if so, for what purpose. I can understand the biblical or theological arguments; I can not understand the "wipe out the family unit" arguments.

What is the goal of a marriage?

[Sea of red]

You mean like when I said:

"Sometimes this might mean we need to change such as getting rid of slavery or dealing with racism. Sometimes we need to stick to our guns such as attempts wipe out the family unit."

See, the issue many have with gay marriage has nothing to do with hatred of gays or anything like it, it has to do with something else.

Explain further please.

[lilpixieofterror]

Explain further please.

It has to do with what marriage is considered to be all about. The question that needs to be answered is what is marriage all about?

[Sea of red]

It has to do with what marriage is considered to be all about. The question that needs to be answered is what is marriage all about?

Which is?

[lilpixieofterror]

Which is?

Hey, this works both ways. What do you think a Christian would see the goal of marriage and the thing it brings about?

[Sea of red]

Hey, this works both ways. What do you think a Christian would see the goal of marriage and the thing it brings about?

I've gotten different answers from Christians, but I assume you're of the opinion it's for children.

[lilpixieofterror]

I've gotten different answers from Christians, but I assume you're of the opinion it's for children.

That is where it comes down to.

[Sea of red]

That is where it comes down to.

That's your belief and you're entitled to it, but some of us have different view-points. As long as nobody is being harmed I have no issue with a legal institutions definition changing. You can still practice your beliefs and peacefully co-exist with gay marriage.

[Sam]

I don't ever recall saying it was, so what is that thing called again when you attack a pile of burning straw?

I was making a general point, as I assume you were when you wrote that hatred of gay people isn't the driving force behind opposition of same-sex marriage for many people. We were both making general statements.

Here, let us start here:

What is the goal of a marriage?

Mutual edification, chastity, economic security, desire to rear children, etc. Marriage need not have a sole or even primary goal.

But for those who see marriage as principally about the family unit (i.e., spouses + children), we have sufficient empirical evidence showing that children of same-sex couples are developmentally similar to children of opposite-sex couples. It is unlikely, then, that any strong arguments against same-sex marriage can be made on the basis of the family unit.

[shunyadragon]

AKA 'Become enlightened and agree with me!'

Enlightenment does not have a paradigm to agree with.

[firstfloor]

Hummm, you mean like the Russians 'trusted' the communist revolution to bring about change from the oppressive ways of the czars and ended up being worse than the czars ever were? Progress, without vision, doesn't seem to work out very well for anybody. While your blind faith is both amusing and scary, one of the major problems of your cult of progress is that it ignores the bad of human nature and only pretends it is the good that exist. There's plenty of examples, just is the 20th century alone, of a whole lot of very bad and horrible things happening in the name of progress to prove that progress, without any sort of real goal, doesn't seem to ever work out. Your cult of progress, doesn't seem to understand even the basics of human nature.

I’m thinking of the really big picture of where civilisation is going based on how far we know it has come already. Our golden age is still ahead of us; not that there won’t be a few bumps in the road along the way.

[Jedidiah]

I’m thinking of the really big picture of where civilisation is going based on how far we know it has come already. Our golden age is still ahead of us; not that there won’t be a few bumps in the road along the way.

We do not seem to have made any progress at all in recorded history. The world today is at least as messed up as it was at any time in the past. How do you imagine this"golden age" might come about?