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Ireland recovering from Theocracy.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    It seems that Sam is aghast that anyone is against dumbing down Americans about this.
    You're putting words into Sam's mouth here. He never implied this.

    Keep 'em ignorant so they don't know what is constitutional and what isn't.
    What purpose do you think it serves for the general population to know more about the contents of the constitution?

    What I observe happening sometimes in the US is that the general populace (who have no legal training and no great amount of intelligence and mental framework for actually understanding the subtleties of the processes by which courts set precedents and reach constitution decisions) delude themselves into believing that they personally have the mental skills to go around pronouncing what is Edited by a Moderator and what isn't. And subsequently instead of paying any attention to what the law is, they will act as if their own beliefs about the implications of the constitution have the force of law. It seems to me you'd be much better off actually educating people about what laws actually say and encouraging people to actually obey them, than you would giving encouragement to stupid people to draw their own conclusions about what they feel ought to be legal based on their own personal interpretation of the constitution.
    Last edited by mossrose; 05-25-2015, 02:07 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      "The Republic of Ireland has voted overwhelmingly to legalise same-sex marriage in a historic referendum. More than 62% voted in favour of amending the country's constitution to allow gay and lesbian couples to marry.
      It is the first country in the world to legalise same-sex marriage through a popular vote.
      Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny said it was a "small country with a big message for equality" around the world.
      The referendum was held 22 years after homosexual acts were decriminalised in the Republic of Ireland."

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32858501
      Yes. And if a priest-ridden country like Ireland, mired for so long in Dark Ages morality, can vote thus then virtually any country in the developed world can...of course the religion-infested third world countries are beyond hope, at least for now. The Irish voters have rejected centuries of anti-homosexual rhetoric and realised the truth about love, that it doesn't have a gender, race, skin colour, creed, or sexual orientation! Well done!
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Yes. And if a priest-ridden country like Ireland, mired for so long in Dark Ages morality, can vote thus then virtually any country in the developed world can...
        Except Australia...

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sam View Post
          Or this one.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            I'm amused by how many of the conservatives here appear to fundamentally dislike democracy and would apparently much rather have some sort of dictatorship.
            Because the abandonment of monarchy and aristocracy was the fundamental Liberal move.

            Believing in 'democracy' or vox populi is a delusion as power always resides with a much smaller subset of the population. Hence the choice is not between democracy and authoritarianism but between different forms of authoritarianism.
            Last edited by Paprika; 05-24-2015, 03:18 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Sam View Post
              Ugh. Again.

              If people are going to be complaining about the consequences of a democracy when a democratic Republic like the USA or Ireland passes measures by popular vote, why is it that people who respond using that loose definition of "democracy" (which we virtually always use when describing America!) get rants about the difference between Republics and Democracies?
              Elementary, my dear Sam.

              The mythology surrounding democracy is very positive (the comments by the Founding Fathers are not often publicised). So when you Yankees extol the glories of your 'democracy' the term is used to evoke all the positive things associated with democracy due to the mythology.

              Of course, when there's criticism of 'the American democracy' there is often a utterly pathetic attempt to deflect the criticism by 'but but but we're not technically a democracy' when the criticism is clearly directed at the American system. In this precise manner Rogue rants about how 'but but but we're not technically a democracy' and avoids addressing the criticism.

              Nationalism: the bane of a great deal of intelligent thought.
              Last edited by Paprika; 05-24-2015, 03:05 AM.

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              • #37
                The archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin missing the point -

                “One of Ireland's most senior Catholic clerics has called for the Church to take a "reality check" following the country's overwhelming vote in favour of same-sex marriage.
                The first gay marriages are now likely to take place in the early autumn.

                Diarmuid Martin, the archbishop of Dublin, said the Church in Ireland needed to reconnect with young people.

                The archbishop personally voted "No" arguing that gay rights should be respected "without changing the definition of marriage".

                "I ask myself, most of these young people who voted yes are products of our Catholic school system for 12 years. I'm saying there's a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church," he added.”

                http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32862824

                The point is that this vote is a rejection of the teaching of the Catholic Church about gay marriage. The people of Ireland know what the message is and they have rejected it. If it wants to remain relevant, the Church will have to heed the people’s message.

                Time to elect an openly gay Pope?

                French diplomat Laurent Stefanini
                http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/13/eu...-diplomat-row/
                The row demonstrating Catholic Church gay hypocrisy.
                Last edited by firstfloor; 05-24-2015, 05:22 AM.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's going to be had for dinner.
                  and the stupid sheep probably think they are outnumbered by the wolves (the one percenters ...actually less, 200,000 wolves to over a billion sheep)

                  sooner or later the sheep will be coming with pitchforks
                  To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    “One of Ireland's most senior Catholic clerics has called for the Church to take a "reality check" following the country's overwhelming vote in favour of same-sex marriage.
                    The first gay marriages are now likely to take place in the early autumn."
                    ...
                    The point is that this vote is a rejection of the teaching of the Catholic Church about gay marriage. The people of Ireland know what the message is and they have rejected it. If it wants to remain relevant, the Church will have to heed the people’s message.
                    Well the current Pope seems to be trying to encourage the higher-ups in the church to pay attention to what lay Catholics actually believe. He keeps promoting various surveys of popular opinions to try to rub the various bishop's noses in the facts about what the people in their churches actually believe.

                    Reading between the lines, the Pope seems to think that a lot of the archbishops in the church are in a religious bubble that is quite insulated from popular opinion among lay Catholics, and he seems to be hoping that if he can make the more conservative archbishops actually realize what the average Catholic-in-the-pew (or even Catholic-who-has-left-the-pew) believes, he might be able to steer the hierarchy in the direction of some populist reforms. It seems clear that he wants to steer the church towards a less strict / more liberal view on contraception, abortion, and gay rights.

                    Because when a nation that is 84% Catholic votes 62% against the explicit teachings of the Catholic church, there is obviously an issue.
                    Last edited by Starlight; 05-24-2015, 05:50 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      A hasty generalization.
                      Which you seem to have no problem making them yourself, as I'll show below.

                      But while DLA is the only one who expressed his displeasure with "democracy" explicitly, this is a general trend among at least a large subset of Conservatives. The Religious Right, for example, is an authoritarian wing of the Conservative bloc. So Starlight's comment wasn't a hasty generalization, especially as we really do seem to have had a fair number of authoritarian Conservatives here through the years.
                      Along with a large group of liberals or did you ignore where DO recently posted an article of liberal protestors, in the UK, protesting that people elected conservatives into office. Some people get upset when their side loses and some want the other side banned. Something common among both liberals and conservatives. Funny how you complain about 'hasty generalizations' and make one yourself.

                      Personally, I'm just ready for the whole "Well, we're a republic not a democracy" counterpoint to go away. It's never been applicable in all the times I've seen it used on this board. No one has argued for a pure democracy or extolled the virtues of pure majority rule.
                      Have you not argued before for people to use the proper terms to describe things properly? Is the US properly described as a republic or a democracy? Shouldn't we use the proper terms to properly describe what we are talking about or not?
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        My response was to an idiot who thinks that opposition to Democracy is tantamount to wanting a dictatorship. It was to pure Democracies that the objections were being raised. Apparently he didn't know what you insist "we all know."

                        And I think that the "loose definition of "democracy" (which we virtually always use when describing America!)" is at the root of many of our political problems and misunderstandings. How often have you heard misinformed folks declare "majority rules"?
                        You're forgetting, Sam will mindlessly defend anybody who is a liberal and will mindlessly attack anybody who is a conservative. Since Starlight is a liberal, Sam will mindless defend him. Nothing else matters.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Well the current Pope seems to be trying to encourage the higher-ups in the church to pay attention to what lay Catholics actually believe. He keeps promoting various surveys of popular opinions to try to rub the various bishop's noses in the facts about what the people in their churches actually believe.

                          Reading between the lines, the Pope seems to think that a lot of the archbishops in the church are in a religious bubble that is quite insulated from popular opinion among lay Catholics, and he seems to be hoping that if he can make the more conservative archbishops actually realize what the average Catholic-in-the-pew (or even Catholic-who-has-left-the-pew) believes, he might be able to steer the hierarchy in the direction of some populist reforms. It seems clear that he wants to steer the church towards a less strict / more liberal view on contraception, abortion, and gay rights.

                          Because when a nation that is 84% Catholic votes 62% against the explicit teachings of the Catholic church, there is obviously an issue.
                          The Church is not a democracy though, so it is not a case of going with the popular vote in the Church. In Ireland the 'yes' campaign was apparently intense. This sentence from this morning's paper:
                          "Other analysts suggested that voters had tired talking about gay sex and voted yes just to make the issue go away." (Sunday Times, May 24 2015, page 8)
                          I can quite imagine that to be the case as the gay community and their allies in the heterosexual and liberal-Christian circles are pretty organized and well-funded in their efforts at putting opposition to the sword.

                          In anycase I am satisfied that if gay people want marriage on the State they should have it. Like D.O said in a post on another thread, the State should do all marriages and the Church should do an additional ceremony for those who want their marriage to be in accordance with the Bible's teachings.

                          If the Pope jettisons the Church's teachings just to get people into the Church then what is the point of that? It is nothing more than a social club. So yes the Church should not be forcing people in society to behave in accordance with Church teaching, but it certainly does have some say about the expectations of behaviour amongst those who call themselves Christian. Christian brethren are accountable for and to one another.
                          Last edited by Abigail; 05-24-2015, 11:34 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            The left has captured the minds of the young through media and entertainment and have been doing so for a few decades.
                            That is why the right either needs to build its own media or wrest the left out of the one we already have.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Except Australia...
                              It'll come, it's inevitable. But who'd have thought that a (once) profoundly Catholic country like Ireland, with its centuries of anti-homosexual rhetoric, would set such an enlightened example.

                              Originally posted by DLAbaoaqu View Post
                              That is why the right either needs to build its own media or wrest the left out of the one we already have.
                              Come now, what do you think Faux News, um, Fox News is?
                              Last edited by Tassman; 05-24-2015, 08:27 PM.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                It'll come, it's inevitable. But who'd have thought that a (once) profoundly Catholic country like Ireland, with its centuries of anti-homosexual rhetoric, would set such an enlightened example.
                                Enlightened? More like perverted.



                                Come now, what do you think Faux News, um, Fox News is?
                                Wow... did you think that up all by yourself?
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

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