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  • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    But I assure you they don't contradict.
    I didn't say they did. It’s a difference of emphasis, not a contradiction.

    Nah, it's just the usual progressive shutting down of criticism of groups and policies which is labelled as 'hate speech'.
    What you linked to was a clear example of hate speech against a minority, not “a usual progressive shutting down of criticism of groups”, which is merely an unsupported generalization.

    Nonsense, there's hardly any Christians trying to institute Mosaic Law, unlike Muslims with Sharia Law.
    That’s not what I said. But there are Christians endeavoring to impose their religious views upon those who disagree with them via the Supreme Court if necessary.

    Man is potentially dangerous, whether he is claiming to follow the will of a god or just acting according with ideology (Hitler, Mao, etc.)
    Man is potentially dangerous in particular when he is following the dictates of totalitarianism whether religious or political.

    Both, actually.
    Not really. Buddhism properly understood is a way of life, not a religion despite its corruption by the masses. But, sadly, people must have their gods.

    The US is hardly Christian, and I don't recall conservatives opposing genuine education reform more than 'liberals' , and the opposition to Obamacare is because it sucks.
    The USA is a Christian nation by any measurable standard. And the Christian USA actively opposes the equitable distribution of government funding into such things as high quality universal education and effective universal health care. This can be seen by the fact that, unlike most other developed nations, the USA consistently resists both.

    You're a moron. If a group of faithful Muslims are labelled (by themselves or others) as Christians, does that make them Christians? Of course not, so that's my point - there needs to be a more stringent criterion than the label.
    If a person describes himself or herself as a Christian then it is reasonable to accept that he or she is a Christian regardless of whether that person meets your particular requirements of what constitutes a Christian. Who set you up as the arbiter?

    My post goes unaddressed, and you ignore the very important factor of wealth: national well-being is unquestionably dependent on the wealth of the nation as a whole. Destructive and navel-gazing progressivism can hope to flourish precisely in a society where other factors ameliorate its destructiveness.
    But the issue is the underlying ideology of how the national wealth is distributed and to whom and to what end. It has nothing to do with “destructive and navel-gazing progressivism”, whatever this pretentious phrase is supposed to mean.

    And that was not the 'progressiveness' I was criticising, so buzz off.
    Then please explain just what the 'progressiveness' is that you are describing, because you're doing a poor job of it.

    Nah, it's merely expressing through alternative means (as tone is not easily conveyed) that you're an idiot, amongst other things
    Tsk, tsk; temper!



    You made other positive claims, moron.
    Get a grip!

    I requested evidence supporting your assertion of “the existence of a source of all good and life”. So, where's the evidence please! I’m waiting.

    The evil one works to kill and destroy?
    And you know this do you? Support this bald assertion.

    Yersinia pestis, my good fellow.
    Indeed, and transmitted mostly by rats…as per my link. But why would you blame the mythical Satan? We’ve moved on considerably since the Middle Ages, e.g. we understand germ theory nowadays, thanks to science.


    Which explains why some of the foremost scientists were so religious - Newton wrote a tome on theology, for example.
    But not now! The majority of scientists are not religious.

    Advances in science require a great deal of wealth and time invested; just coincidentally the Renaissance was a period of great wealth and patronage for intelligent men.
    The Renaissance marked the beginning of scientific methodology often in defiance of the Church. The Church “was uniformly hostile to the whole system of scientific values, condemning them as vain, idolatrous, arrogant, and unnecessary, if not outright dangerous. It took a long, gradual process to finally change minds on that score”

    http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2...istianity.html

    You're too kind, but and I'm not God, and the wars were fought in God's name.
    …and it is God to whom you owe obedience.

    It's also related to the wealth the nation possesses; if there's little wealth to be distributed then the HDI will suck even though the proposed distribution may be good.
    Obviously, but the issue is how the wealth is distributed, i.e. equitably as per non-religious Scandinavia and much of Europe or more directed towards the already rich as per the Christian USA (see previous link).

    I'm glad you agree the US is much more socioeconomically heterogeneous compared to the Nordic countries, so a direct comparison to compare ideology is hardly holding all relevant factors ceteris paribus. (By the way, the ghettoisation is linked to race.)
    The “US is much more socioeconomically heterogeneous” based upon its own ideology and the ghettoisation of its’ large underclass is the result of the inequitable distribution of its wealth. The consequence is the inevitable social unrest we’re seeing today.

    And ghettoisation is not just linked to race but to "a usually poor section of a city inhabited primarily by people of the same race, religion, or social background, often due to discrimination by the majority" - Oxford Dictionary.

    That's IHDI.
    It is indeed and the point is that the Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index measures the outcome of national wealth distribution…the more equitable the funding for education, health care and social safety-nets etc. the higher the IHDI ranking will be.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      I didn't say they did. It’s a difference of emphasis, not a contradiction.
      Yes, yes, you were trying to make out that I shifted stance but that failed so you might want to move on now.

      What you linked to was a clear example of hate speech against a minority, not “a usual progressive shutting down of criticism of groups”, which is merely an unsupported generalization.
      As above, "Nah, it's just the usual progressive shutting down of criticism of groups and policies which is labelled as 'hate speech'."

      That’s not what I said. But there are Christians endeavoring to impose their religious views upon those who disagree with them via the Supreme Court if necessary.
      That's on the same level as progressives endeavoring to impose progressive views.

      Man is potentially dangerous in particular when he is following the dictates of totalitarianism whether religious or political.
      And so since progressivism inexorably leads to totalitarianism...

      Not really. Buddhism properly understood is a way of life, not a religion despite its corruption by the masses. But, sadly, people must have their gods.
      Who cares? De facto Buddhism or many Buddhisms fall under 'religion'.

      The USA is a Christian nation by any measurable standard.
      That old tired canard.

      If a person describes himself or herself as a Christian then it is reasonable to accept that he or she is a Christian regardless of whether that person meets your particular requirements of what constitutes a Christian. Who set you up as the arbiter?

      As above, "You're a moron. If a group of faithful Muslims are labelled (by themselves or others) as Christians, does that make them Christians? Of course not, so that's my point - there needs to be a more stringent criterion than the label."

      But the issue is the underlying ideology of how the national wealth is distributed and to whom and to what end. It has nothing to do with “destructive and navel-gazing progressivism”, whatever this pretentious phrase is supposed to mean.
      No, the issue has been "is progressivism destructive".

      Then please explain just what the 'progressiveness' is that you are describing, because you're doing a poor job of it.
      Embracing liberté, égalité, fraternité.

      Tsk, tsk; temper!

      Get a grip!
      No need to project your emotions; it's probably hard for you to imagine but it's perfectly possible to apply a descriptor without emotions being involved.

      I requested evidence supporting your assertion of “the existence of a source of all good and life”. So, where's the evidence please! I’m waiting.
      I'm waiting for your evidence regarding there is no 'substantial evidence' for God.

      And you know this do you? Support this bald assertion.

      Indeed, and transmitted mostly by rats…as per my link. But why would you blame the mythical Satan? We’ve moved on considerably since the Middle Ages, e.g. we understand germ theory nowadays, thanks to science.
      And how do you know that Satan doesn't exist? All I've done is acknowledge the possibility that Satan did it; I did not 'blame' him.

      But not now! The majority of scientists are not religious.
      The point remains that many of the earliest pioneers of modern science were religious, so science and religion are not 'incompatible' as you claimed

      The Renaissance marked the beginning of scientific methodology often in defiance of the Church. The Church “was uniformly hostile to the whole system of scientific values, condemning them as vain, idolatrous, arrogant, and unnecessary, if not outright dangerous. It took a long, gradual process to finally change minds on that score”
      Nah, their mistake was sticking with Aristotelians who made up a great deal of scientists at that time. So the problem of the Church was putting too much faith in certain scientists.

      …and it is God to whom you owe obedience.
      Right, but how that gets to "You are a living paradigm of the evils of religion, Paprika" remains to be shown.

      Obviously, but the issue is how the wealth is distributed, i.e. equitably as per non-religious Scandinavia and much of Europe or more directed towards the already rich as per the Christian USA (see previous link).
      My point is that it's not an either/or but a both/and, both wealth and how wealth is distributed - which I've maintained all along.

      The “US is much more socioeconomically heterogeneous” based upon its own ideology and the ghettoisation of its’ large underclass is the result of the inequitable distribution of its wealth. The consequence is the inevitable social unrest we’re seeing today.
      No, it's a result of progressive policies screwing up the black culture as well as mass importing many poor immigrants.

      It is indeed and the point is that the Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index measures the outcome of national wealth distribution…the more equitable the funding for education, health care and social safety-nets etc. the higher the IHDI ranking will be.
      Your point being?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
        Yes, yes, you were trying to make out that I shifted stance but that failed so you might want to move on now.
        You did shift stance. There’s a significant difference between something “tending” to occur and something “inexorably” occurring.

        As above, "Nah, it's just the usual progressive shutting down of criticism of groups and policies which is labelled as 'hate speech'."
        If it’s “speech” that’s discriminatory of minority groups then it is “hate speech” in that it demonises some people anf =d therefore needs to be shut down in the interests of the community as a whole.

        That's on the same level as progressives endeavoring to impose progressive views.
        Not so. The progressive position is the promotion of equal human rights for all citizens which is in marked contrast to denying the human rights of some citizens e.g. homosexuals or blacks.

        And so since progressivism inexorably leads to totalitarianism...
        So you keep saying, where’s the evidence?

        The promotion of equality for all is not the same as the totalitarianism imposed by a dominant interest group such as a specific religious or political ideology.

        Who cares? De facto Buddhism or many Buddhisms fall under 'religion'.
        Nevertheless, as a point of accuracy defacto Buddhism is not “true” Buddhism…you of all people with your “no true Christians in USA” mantra should understand the difference.

        That old tired canard.
        …and factual. The USA is a Christian nation by any measurable standard.

        As above, "You're a moron. If a group of faithful Muslims are labelled (by themselves or others) as Christians, does that make them Christians? Of course not, so that's my point - there needs to be a more stringent criterion than the label."
        Note the ever so subtle difference that Muslims calling themselves Christians, or atheists calling themselves Christians is not the same as self-identified Christians calling themselves Christian. Sheesh!

        No, the issue has been "is progressivism destructive".
        And you're demonstrably wrong. The progressive countries are measured by the HDI as the ones where all citizens have greater equal opportunity, equal educational and health benefits and equal civil rights…this as opposed to the regressive countries which do not so much.

        Embracing liberté, égalité, fraternité.
        And embracing liberté, égalité, fraternité is what results in “inexorable destruction in your view? Really! What’s your alternative…the bible as the governing text for all areas of life? Great, bring on the Inquisitions for those who do not conform to God’s holy word.

        No need to project your emotions; it's probably hard for you to imagine but it's perfectly possible to apply a descriptor without emotions being involved.
        Resorting to the use of insults such as “moron”, with or without emotion, is generally considered to indicate a lack of self-control.

        I'm waiting for your evidence regarding there is no 'substantial evidence' for God.
        So you’re unable to support your bald assertion of “the existence of a source of all good and life”. Thought so!

        And how do you know that Satan doesn't exist? All I've done is acknowledge the possibility that Satan did it; I did not 'blame' him.
        I don’t. Nor do I know that Russell’s orbiting celestial teapot doesn't exist, but both assertions are highly improbable. Prove otherwise.

        The point remains that many of the earliest pioneers of modern science were religious, so science and religion are not 'incompatible' as you claimed.
        Given that the majority of today’s science practitioners are not religious it seems likely that science and religion have been found to be ‘incompatible’. To paraphrase Coyne: Science is based on reason and empirical study and is reliable, whereas religion—including faith, dogma, and revelation—leads to incorrect, untestable, or conflicting conclusions.

        Nah, their mistake was sticking with Aristotelians who made up a great deal of scientists at that time. So the problem of the Church was putting too much faith in certain scientists.
        Whatever the reason there remains the demonstrable fact of a 1,000 year gap between the end of the pagan era of enormous scientific advancement and the establishment of Christianity as a power, during which innovative scientific research became virtually non-existent.

        Right, but how that gets to "You are a living paradigm of the evils of religion, Paprika" remains to be shown.
        You arbitrarily assume the right to judge others based upon your Christian beliefs.

        My point is that it's not an either/or but a both/and, both wealth and how wealth is distributed - which I've maintained all along.
        No your emphasis has been on the efficient distribution of wealth. But efficiency is less important than how and where it’s distributed. E.g. wealth is very efficiently directed in the USA towards the already wealthy (as per my previous links).

        Conversely, in much of the rest of the developed world it is far more equitably disbursed in the form of universal quality education, universal health care, social safety-nets and a reasonable minimum living wage etc. This is what you are erroneously claiming as leading inexorably to destruction. It doesn't!

        No, it's a result of progressive policies screwing up the black culture as well as mass importing many poor immigrants.
        Nonsense, the progressive policies of Scandinavia and much of Europe have resulted in reasonable equality for all citizens. The facts speak for themselves.

        Conversely, the regressive policies of the Christian USA have resulted in an enormous, mostly black and Latino, underclass and consequent social unrest as we see on a daily basis.

        Your point being?
        The point is that the more equitable the funding in education, health-care and social safety-nets etc. the higher the IHDI ranking will be and the less social unrest there’ll be. In short the more progressive the policies the more enhanced will be social well-being resulting in a more stable society.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment

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