Bakery Case

[Abigail]

Wow, just wow. This case was so contrived to get Christians to court. Definitely not good PR for gay people.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...imination.html

The cake was not even a wedding cake. It was for some 'support gay marriage' gathering they were having. These people are quite happy to trample all over Christian identity yet make so much about their own identity.

[Darth Ovious]

Good comment was added by someone with this.

This is more than just about religion; it's about freedom of choice. We run a business and we should be allowed to refuse to serve those who offend us whether it be on moral, religious or other grounds. Customers can always vote with their feet. I wouldn't want to take the ill gotten gains of a drug dealer or exchange pleasantries with a paedophile for example. As the DUP MLA quoted earlier (Paul Givan), there is a clear hierarchy being established that gay rights are more important than the rights of individuals to hold religious beliefs.

[Starlight]

~shrug~ The penalty was 500 pounds. That's pretty small and it's not really going to break the bank for anyone concerned.

The publicity around the case might encourage people to refrain from discrimination. But the small penalty might inspire others to discriminate, if they believe that the cost of sticking to their prejudices is only a small financial sacrifice.

If Christian "identity" as you put it, is defined with reference to prejudice towards others, then I would say there is something pretty theologically dubious about your notion of Christian "identity". Let's keep things in perspective: The Romans who persecuted Christians demanded that Christians publicly curse Christ and offer sacrifices to Roman gods. That's attacking Christian identity. Telling Christians they need to treat other people well isn't attacking Christian identity, or if it is then your definition of Christian identity is pretty messed up.

The timing of this decision's probably poor, however, as Ireland is having its referendum on gay marriage shortly. It's probably not great PR from the point of view of that referendum.

[Abigail]

~shrug~ The penalty was 500 pounds. That's pretty small and it's not really going to break the bank for anyone concerned.

And they are liable for all the legal fees which could well be considerable. £500 is a lot for some small businesses

[Starlight]

We run a business and we should be allowed to refuse to serve those who offend us whether it be on moral, religious or other grounds.

That's historically been found to be unsatisfactory because it resulted in racial segregation. The more satisfactory system has turned out to be for the government to insist that any business open to the public has to serve all the public without discrimination.

there is a clear hierarchy being established that gay rights are more important than the rights of individuals to hold religious beliefs.

Discrimination on the grounds of religious belief is typically prohibited just as is discrimination on grounds of race, gender, or sexual orientation: Businesses are required to serve all people equally without discrimination or prejudice. It's not a case of gay rights being more important than religious belief, it's a case of businesses being required to serve everyone, of all religions and all sexualities.

[Abigail]

If Christian "identity" as you put it, is defined with reference to prejudice towards others, then I would say there is something pretty theologically dubious about your notion of Christian "identity". Let's keep things in perspective: The Romans who persecuted Christians demanded that Christians publicly curse Christ and offer sacrifices to Roman gods. That's attacking Christian identity. Telling Christians they need to treat other people well isn't attacking Christian identity, or if it is then your definition of Christian identity is pretty messed up.

But this was NOT even a wedding cake. The cake was specifically for a 'support gay marriage' gathering. These people do not support gay marriage so why should they be forced to make a cake for it. Would you make a 'God hates fags' cake for Westbro baptists? No, I thought not!! (And nor would I because I don't believe that). I do not support gay marriage. Yes, I support a gay persons right to get married but that is not the same as supporting gay marriage, because if a gay person asked my opinion on whether they should get married or not I would say 'No' One wonders how long until I am in court for that!!!

[Starlight]

And they are liable for all the legal fees which could well be considerable. £500 is a lot for some small businesses

In similar cases around the world, the offenders have had little trouble raising substantial amounts of money from people who shared their prejudices and were willing to help them out. Chances also seem good that their own church is likely to help them pay if necessary. I seriously doubt the offenders here will have financial problems as a result of this.

Legal fees are always an issue for the guilty party. I guess they should have considered that before breaking the law.

[Darth Ovious]

That's historically been found to be unsatisfactory because it resulted in racial segregation. The more satisfactory system has turned out to be for the government to insist that any business open to the public has to serve all the public without discrimination.

Well have fun baking paedophile cakes then with "support paedophilia" on them. Paedophilia might be illegal but paedophiles do still get their freedom of speech to say it, so you can't deny them their cake based upon this. Also drug barons will still want their cakes with their special kind of icing on top.

I wonder if the Christian bakers can go round their house and force them to pray since it was OK for them to force them to bake a cake.

Discrimination on the grounds of religious belief is typically prohibited just as is discrimination on grounds of race, gender, or sexual orientation: Businesses are required to serve all people equally without discrimination or prejudice. It's not a case of gay rights being more important than religious belief, it's a case of businesses being required to serve everyone, of all religions and all sexualities.

You do realise that the person travelled 20 miles from Bangor to Belfast to specifically order this cake from them because he was deliberately targeting them. Bangor has plenty of cake shops who could have baked the cake for him but he choose them specifically because they were Christian and was hoping they would refuse so he could purposely take it to court.

[Abigail]

In similar cases around the world, the offenders have had little trouble raising substantial amounts of money from people who shared their prejudices and were willing to help them out. Chances also seem good that their own church is likely to help them pay if necessary. I seriously doubt the offenders here will have financial problems as a result of this.

Legal fees are always an issue for the guilty party. I guess they should have considered that before breaking the law.

For how long since people like you seem set on driving Christians from the market place. This is flat-out persecution of Christians as far as I am concerned.

[Starlight]

The cake was specifically for a 'support gay marriage' gathering. These people do not support gay marriage so why should they be forced to make a cake for it. Would you make a 'God hates fags' cake for Westbro baptists?

Generally with non-discrimination laws, any business can discriminate on any grounds other than those that are protected (religion, gender, sexuality etc). So you could say "my business has a policy of not publishing hate-speech". It would be perfectly legal to refuse the Westbro baptists on those grounds. You couldn't however say "my business has a policy of not serving Christians". It would be illegal to refuse the Westbro baptists on those grounds.

I do not support gay marriage. Yes, I support a gay persons right to get married but that is not the same as supporting gay marriage, because if a gay person asked my opinion on whether they should get married or not I would say 'No'. One wonders how long until I am in court for that!!!

I can't think of a case where people have ever been taking to court for thinking something, or holding an opinion. It's the things they do as a result of their views that lead to them breaking laws. The idea of this changing seems a bit overly paranoid.

I am unclear on what you are meaning when you distinguish between not supporting gay marriage versus supporting a gay persons' right to get married...?

[Darth Ovious]

Generally with non-discrimination laws, any business can discriminate on any grounds other than those that are protected (religion, gender, sexuality etc). So you could say "my business has a policy of not publishing hate-speech". It would be perfectly legal to refuse the Westbro baptists on those grounds. You couldn't however say "my business has a policy of not serving Christians". It would be illegal to refuse the Westbro baptists on those grounds.

So you would still have to serve the local drug dealer who is selling Angel Dust to the kids in your neighbourhood?

[Starlight]

So you would still have to serve the local drug dealer who is selling Angel Dust to the kids in your neighbourhood?

No, that's the opposite of what I said. You could discriminate on grounds that you don't serve drug dealers. Or on grounds that you don't serve people with criminal convictions. Or on grounds that you've heard the person is causing trouble in the neighborhood. Or on grounds that they smell funny. Or on grounds that they're dressed funny. Or even just say that you're refusing them service and don't give a reason.

[Darth Ovious]

This ironically represents what is happening really

Mugging.jpg

[Darth Ovious]

No, that's the opposite of what I said. You could discriminate on grounds that you don't serve drug dealers. Or on grounds that you don't serve people with criminal convictions. Or on grounds that you've heard the person is causing trouble in the neighborhood. Or on grounds that they smell funny. Or on grounds that they're dressed funny. Or even just say that you're refusing them service and don't give a reason.

So businesses shouldn't have to serve everyone? They can choose to refuse to sell to some people? Doesn't that disprove the argument that a business is required to sell services to all people and are not allowed to choose who they sell to?

[Abigail]

Generally with non-discrimination laws, any business can discriminate on any grounds other than those that are protected (religion, gender, sexuality etc). So you could say "my business has a policy of not publishing hate-speech". It would be perfectly legal to refuse the Westbro baptists on those grounds. You couldn't however say "my business has a policy of not serving Christians". It would be illegal to refuse the Westbro baptists on those grounds.

Going out your way to bait Christians could be seen as a hate crime. Here by Darth Ovious:

You do realise that the person travelled 20 miles from Bangor to Belfast to specifically order this cake from them because he was deliberately targeting them. Bangor has plenty of cake shops who could have baked the cake for him but he choose them specifically because they were Christian and was hoping they would refuse so he could purposely take it to court.

I can't think of a case where people have ever been taking to court for thinking something, or holding an opinion. It's the things they do as a result of their views that lead to them breaking laws. The idea of this changing seems a bit overly paranoid.

Well, only time will tell wont it. People are being bullied up and down the country daily for their opinions and the bolder the oppressors get the more likelihood we have people landing in court for little more than their opinion on matters.

I am unclear on what you are meaning when you distinguish between not supporting gay marriage versus supporting a gay persons' right to get married...?

If a gay person wants to get married then that is up to them and I will not stand in their way, but my own belief is that Christian marriage is between a man and a woman and therefore I would never make a cake that would be used in a rally supporting gay marriage. Especially not if my bakery was known to be Christian as how could I be sure that the people who got the cake would not make a big deal about that to give the impression that I thought there was absolutely nothing wrong with gay marriage - doing that kind of thing is deceptive and abusive. So while you may not see a difference, to me there is a big difference between allowing people to make their own choices about things (ie getting married or not) and making sure that liberality on my part is not abused so as to pay lip-service to the issue at a much deeper level with which I do not agree. In other words while I respect everyones right to choice I still have very definite opinions on the matter and I am not going to have my opinion rail-roaded over.