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Is there such a thing as a fair advantage?

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  • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I'm not a sports fan, but I thought it was more or less common knowledge that one of the major reasons why basketball grew in popularity was because of it was cheap, and didn't require a lot of equipment compared to other sports. Is that not the case?
    That would apply to white students too. Let's not forget that blacks are just 13% of the population. Their dominating any field at all is significant.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I'm kinda curious what the "pre-existing gym" would have existed for prior to being utilized for basketball. Every indoor basketball facility I have ever seen had a special hardwood floor with the basketball court layout inlaid. (Maybe I'm just spoiled )
      I don't know anything about 19th century gyms. Maybe they used them for wrestling, and dodgeball.

      Here's a couple wiki's on this:

      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith

      At Springfield YMCA, Naismith struggled with a rowdy class which was confined to indoor games throughout the harsh New England winter and thus was perpetually short-tempered. Under orders from Dr. Luther Gulick, head of Springfield YMCA Physical Education, Naismith was given 14 days to create an indoor game that would provide an "athletic distraction": Gulick demanded that it would not take up much room, could help its track athletes to keep in shape and explicitly emphasized to "make it fair for all players and not too rough."

      In his attempt to think up a new game, Naismith was guided by three main thoughts. Firstly, he analyzed the most popular games of those times (rugby, lacrosse, soccer, football, hockey, and baseball); Naismith noticed the hazards of a ball and concluded that the big soft soccer ball was safest. Secondly, he saw that most physical contact occurred while running with the ball, dribbling or hitting it, so he decided that passing was the only legal option. Finally, Naismith further reduced body contact by making the goal unguardable, namely placing it high above the player's heads. To score goals, he forced the players to throw a soft lobbing shot that had proven effective in his old favorite game duck on a rock. Naismith christened this new game "Basket Ball" and put his thoughts together in 13 basic rules.

      The first game of "Basket Ball" was played in December 1891. In a handwritten report, Naismith described the circumstances of the inaugural match; in contrast to modern basketball, the players played nine versus nine, handled a soccer ball, not a basketball, and instead of shooting at two hoops, the goals were a pair of peach baskets: "When Mr. Stubbins brot [sic] up the peach baskets to the gym I secured them on the inside of the railing of the gallery. This was about 10 feet from the floor, one at each end of the gymnasium. I then put the 13 rules on the bulletin board just behind the instructor's platform, secured a soccer ball and awaited the arrival of the class... The class did not show much enthusiasm but followed my lead... I then explained what they had to do to make goals, tossed the ball up between the two center men & tried to keep them somewhat near the rules. Most of the fouls were called for running with the ball, though tackling the man with the ball was not uncommon." In contrast to modern basketball, the original rules did not include what is known today as the dribble. Since the ball could only be moved up the court via a pass early players tossed the ball over their heads as they ran up court. Also, following each "goal" a jump ball was taken in the middle of the court. Both practices are obsolete in the rules of modern basketball.

      © Copyright Original Source



      The same wiki link also mentions that "Naismith long regarded his game as a curiosity and preferred gymnastics and wrestling as better forms of physical education." So I'm guessing the gyms were typically used for those sports (no mention of dodgeball though ).

      And from the wiki on Basketball:

      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball

      Before widespread school district consolidation, most American high schools were far smaller than their present-day counterparts. During the first decades of the 20th century, basketball quickly became the ideal interscholastic sport due to its modest equipment and personnel requirements. In the days before widespread television coverage of professional and college sports, the popularity of high school basketball was unrivaled in many parts of America. Perhaps the most legendary of high school teams was Indiana's Franklin Wonder Five, which took the nation by storm during the 1920s, dominating Indiana basketball and earning national recognition.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Like I said, I'm not into sports at all, but I recently listened to a podcast on the invention of the shot clock which changed the sport dramatically in the mid-50s. Before the invention of the shot clock, a team could hold the ball as long as they wanted, so teams would acquire a few points and then hold onto the ball until the time ran out. It made games slow and boring, and NBC was actually considering dropping the NBA since people were losing interest in it. With the invention of the 24 second shot clock, teams were forced to get rid of the ball and make points as quickly as possible, and added tension to the game that wasn't present before then. Pretty neat stuff.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        I don't know anything about 19th century gyms. Maybe they used them for wrestling, and dodgeball.

        Here's a couple wiki's on this:

        Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith

        At Springfield YMCA, Naismith struggled with a rowdy class which was confined to indoor games throughout the harsh New England winter and thus was perpetually short-tempered. Under orders from Dr. Luther Gulick, head of Springfield YMCA Physical Education, Naismith was given 14 days to create an indoor game that would provide an "athletic distraction": Gulick demanded that it would not take up much room, could help its track athletes to keep in shape and explicitly emphasized to "make it fair for all players and not too rough."

        In his attempt to think up a new game, Naismith was guided by three main thoughts. Firstly, he analyzed the most popular games of those times (rugby, lacrosse, soccer, football, hockey, and baseball); Naismith noticed the hazards of a ball and concluded that the big soft soccer ball was safest. Secondly, he saw that most physical contact occurred while running with the ball, dribbling or hitting it, so he decided that passing was the only legal option. Finally, Naismith further reduced body contact by making the goal unguardable, namely placing it high above the player's heads. To score goals, he forced the players to throw a soft lobbing shot that had proven effective in his old favorite game duck on a rock. Naismith christened this new game "Basket Ball" and put his thoughts together in 13 basic rules.

        The first game of "Basket Ball" was played in December 1891. In a handwritten report, Naismith described the circumstances of the inaugural match; in contrast to modern basketball, the players played nine versus nine, handled a soccer ball, not a basketball, and instead of shooting at two hoops, the goals were a pair of peach baskets: "When Mr. Stubbins brot [sic] up the peach baskets to the gym I secured them on the inside of the railing of the gallery. This was about 10 feet from the floor, one at each end of the gymnasium. I then put the 13 rules on the bulletin board just behind the instructor's platform, secured a soccer ball and awaited the arrival of the class... The class did not show much enthusiasm but followed my lead... I then explained what they had to do to make goals, tossed the ball up between the two center men & tried to keep them somewhat near the rules. Most of the fouls were called for running with the ball, though tackling the man with the ball was not uncommon." In contrast to modern basketball, the original rules did not include what is known today as the dribble. Since the ball could only be moved up the court via a pass early players tossed the ball over their heads as they ran up court. Also, following each "goal" a jump ball was taken in the middle of the court. Both practices are obsolete in the rules of modern basketball.

        © Copyright Original Source



        The same wiki link also mentions that "Naismith long regarded his game as a curiosity and preferred gymnastics and wrestling as better forms of physical education." So I'm guessing the gyms were typically used for those sports (no mention of dodgeball though ).

        And from the wiki on Basketball:

        Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball

        Before widespread school district consolidation, most American high schools were far smaller than their present-day counterparts. During the first decades of the 20th century, basketball quickly became the ideal interscholastic sport due to its modest equipment and personnel requirements. In the days before widespread television coverage of professional and college sports, the popularity of high school basketball was unrivaled in many parts of America. Perhaps the most legendary of high school teams was Indiana's Franklin Wonder Five, which took the nation by storm during the 1920s, dominating Indiana basketball and earning national recognition.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Like I said, I'm not into sports at all, but I recently listened to a podcast on the invention of the shot clock which changed the sport dramatically in the mid-50s. Before the invention of the shot clock, a team could hold the ball as long as they wanted, so teams would acquire a few points and then hold onto the ball until the time ran out. It made games slow and boring, and NBC was actually considering dropping the NBA since people were losing interest in it. With the invention of the 24 second shot clock, teams were forced to get rid of the ball and make points as quickly as possible, and added tension to the game that wasn't present before then. Pretty neat stuff.
        OK.... who knew?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Edited by a Moderator

          Moderated By: CP

          Wow, Epo -- you've been warned and pointed for similar nonsense!

          ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
          Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

          Last edited by Cow Poke; 05-12-2015, 04:20 PM.

          Comment


          • Or a gif of the year, come to think of it:

            Edited by a Moderator

            Moderated By: QuantaFille

            That was uncalled for.

            ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
            Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

            Last edited by QuantaFille; 05-12-2015, 04:54 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              That would apply to white students too. Let's not forget that blacks are just 13% of the population. Their dominating any field at all is significant.
              Of course it applies to white students too.

              Comment


              • I have been made aware of some studies that seem to clash with the argument that I'd tentatively advanced earlier (about poverty and race in sports). The other points that I'd discussed appear to still stand, and in fact the studies seem to actually strengthen some of those other points, but consequently, I will retract that particular argument.


                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I thought it was because he was too short.
                Er...that was addressed in a later part of the post that you quoted, but just to be clear...you DO realize that this is a hypothetical example in response to Sparko's earlier hypothetical example, right? The reasoning applies to real-life cases of inequality, but you're aware that there's no specific real-life athlete in mind here, yes? Because your other responses such as

                Originally posted by Cow Poke
                Yeah, drive on over to your local high school and ask to speak to the head coach of the football team. Then go ahead and educate him, and lemme know how that worked for ya.
                ...seem to indicate that you didn't realize that.

                Basketball teams have these things called "uniforms". And you can't just wear any old shoes on the court.
                You seem to be awfully fond of picking nits. I was talking more about inner-city kids playing basketball in parks and whatnot, rather than on organized teams. But even if you focus on playing organized team basketball, it remains true that one doesn't need helmets, pads, cleats, etc, the way one does in football. It certainly seems, at the very least, that playing football overall requires more monetary investment compared to basketball.

                Not to mention, basketball is overall perceived as safer than football--catastrophic injuries can occur in basketball, but football seems to produce more such injuries like concussions, torn ACLs, etc, and consequently less money is spent taking care of injuries.

                Nevertheless, as I said above, I'm retracting this argument due to conflicting evidence that I've come across, so I see no need to pursue it further.


                Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                How do you square that with the fact that apparently a majority of NFL players are black? (according to point 5 of this list)
                As a study that I found reports, while there are several black NBA stars who did come from poor backgrounds, black NBA players in general are actually 30% less likely than the typical black male to be born in such backgrounds or in broken homes. Another study which essentially comes to the same conclusions reports that at one point in the 1960s and 70s, the NBA did primarily consist of athletes from inner-city urban areas, but that the demographic and financial breakdown has since shifted. Meanwhile, a third analysis reports that the majority of NFL players tend to come from large metropolitan areas, so they presumably weren't that poor. Consequently, as I mentioned above, I retract this argument.

                (That said, those studies focus primarily on the athletes who made it to professional sports leagues, but I haven't found anything about sports participation at lower levels. It may be a possibility that the dynamic from the argument holds true up to a threshold point, after which having wealth becomes more significant and makes or breaks whether athletes are able to qualify for the professional leagues. More investigation is needed.)

                But ultimately, this doesn't really support Sparko either. So it appears that everyone involved in this discussion was wrong to an extent.
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                Comment


                • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                  I have been made aware of some studies that seem to clash with the argument that I'd tentatively advanced earlier
                  Don't ya hate it when that happens?

                  (about poverty and race in sports). The other points that I'd discussed appear to still stand,
                  So far

                  and in fact the studies seem to actually strengthen some of those other points, but consequently, I will retract that particular argument.
                  And the jury will disregard anything fm93 said.

                  Er...that was addressed in a later part of the post that you quoted, but just to be clear...you DO realize that this is a hypothetical example in response to Sparko's earlier hypothetical example, right? The reasoning applies to real-life cases of inequality, but you're aware that there's no specific real-life athlete in mind here, yes? Because your other responses such as
                  I'm still trying to figure out which of your arguments you're still supporting and which ones you're abandoning.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Don't ya hate it when that happens?
                    It'd be nice if, when someone like lilpixieofterror inevitably attacks my character and integrity in the future, you would correct her and point to this as proof that I will, in fact, retract an argument and admit to error if there is actually good evidence that seems to conflict with it.

                    I'm still trying to figure out which of your arguments you're still supporting and which ones you're abandoning.
                    I am retracting the argument that the high representation of African-Americans in sports is due to poor people (who tend to be black) being significantly more driven to succeed because they view sports as basically their only option for social mobility. At least at the professional level, that appears to not be the case--most of the black athletes who make it to the pros simply aren't particularly poor.
                    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                      It'd be nice if, when someone like lilpixieofterror inevitably attacks my character and integrity in the future, you would correct her and point to this as proof that I will, in fact, retract an argument and admit to error if there is actually good evidence that seems to conflict with it.
                      You're on your own! She SCARES me!

                      I am retracting the argument that the high representation of African-Americans in sports is due to poor people (who tend to be black) being significantly more driven to succeed because they view sports as basically their only option for social mobility. At least at the professional level, that appears to not be the case--most of the black athletes who make it to the pros simply aren't particularly poor.
                      Yeah, as some of us have been saying all along, they make it the pros and are hired because they play better. Not because of some sociomumbojumbo.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        You're on your own! She SCARES me!
                        So you won't correct/rebuke your spiritual brethren when they're clearly in the wrong?

                        Yeah, as some of us have been saying all along, they make it the pros and are hired because they play better. Not because of some sociomumbojumbo.
                        But that also conflicts with Sparko's assumption that many of those athletes tend to be poor but succeed primarily because of some vague racial gene.
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                          So you won't correct/rebuke your spiritual brethren when they're clearly in the wrong?
                          Not if they can beat me up.

                          But that also conflicts with Sparko's assumption that many of those athletes tend to be poor but succeed primarily because of some vague racial gene.
                          Some vague racial gene?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                            It'd be nice if, when someone like lilpixieofterror inevitably attacks my character and integrity in the future, you would correct her and point to this as proof that I will, in fact, retract an argument and admit to error if there is actually good evidence that seems to conflict with it.
                            Why? You do the same thing to me, so what is wrong when you get treated as you treat others? Oh, you don't remember when you accused Sparko and myself of never admitting we are wrong and when you were given evidence that says otherwise, you ran away? I guess the lesson here is don't do what fm does, do what fm says?

                            I am retracting the argument that the high representation of African-Americans in sports is due to poor people (who tend to be black) being significantly more driven to succeed because they view sports as basically their only option for social mobility. At least at the professional level, that appears to not be the case--most of the black athletes who make it to the pros simply aren't particularly poor.
                            People will not succeed when they have an outlook that they will always fail. Ever hear of a self fulfilling prophecy? Anyway, your arguments about expense of sports is just silly. I can remember playing a few sports games with my neighbors and brothers (there was usually at least another girl there too) and it didn't take tons of equipment to play any of these sports. We played basketball, football, baseball, soccer, and even hockey. I will grant that basketball is pretty easy to play close to professional level, without tons of cost (soccer isn't too hard either), but we only had one hoop and we didn't have near the size of court required, but we did the best we could. You don't need tons of expensive equipment, to play a sport in a neighborhood.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              You're on your own! She SCARES me!


                              Unless you happy to be my biological brother or a really annoying game, you have nothing to fear.

                              Yeah, as some of us have been saying all along, they make it the pros and are hired because they play better. Not because of some sociomumbojumbo.
                              Professional teams care about how good of a player they can get on their teams.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I'm kinda curious what the "pre-existing gym" would have existed for prior to being utilized for basketball. Every indoor basketball facility I have ever seen had a special hardwood floor with the basketball court layout inlaid. (Maybe I'm just spoiled )
                                To be fair, basketball comes from the late 19th century. I'm sure most of these converted gym's have either been torn down or remodeled between than and now. Besides, the gym in my high school was muti purpose. It was capable of being used to play basketball, dodge ball, a small running track, volleyball, and an area to hold assemblies (just to name a few uses). The one's I've seen on military bases are also used for lots of stuff beyond just basketball too.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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