Rape Culture: Why Yes can mean No

[Teallaura]

In an article written by Jordan Bosiljevac and published on "The Forum" she claims that even if a woman says "Yes" she might really mean "No" and that means she was raped.

http://cmcforum.com/opinion/04302015...es-can-mean-no

It started with “consent is sexy.” But, of course, there was no point in that—it was like saying rape is just bad sex, instead of a felony. Then there was “consent is mandatory.” It was much better, reminding us that sex is consensual, and everything else is rape. But then there was me, after a party, in a man’s dorm room. And there was “is this ok?” If we are being legal about this, I said ‘yes’—no coercion, no imminent threat of violence, no inebriation (well, not a lot, anyway). But what I want to talk about is what happened before I said yes, who taught me to say yes, why I thought it was better to say yes, and why I really meant ‘no.’

...

Honestly, there’s a lot more to it than that for me. At five, relatives used to kiss my cheeks even as I winced and turned away. At the tender age of twelve, I was taught that my bra straps and thighs deserved detention because they distracted boys at school. At sixteen, my boyfriend assured me that most girls liked this—I just needed to relax. So at 20, in someone’s room after a party, ‘no’ was scary and unfamiliar to me. These incidents, unfortunately, are not unique to me. In discussing this experience with friends, we coined the term “raped by rape culture” to describe what it was like to say yes, coerced by the culture that had raised us and the systems of power that worked on us, and to still want ‘no.’ Sometimes, for me, there was obligation from already having gone back to someone’s room, not wanting to ruin a good friendship, loneliness, worry that no one else would ever be interested, a fear that if I did say no, they might not stop, the influence of alcohol, and an understanding that hookups are “supposed” to be fun.

The article goes much longer than the excerpt and is interesting reading.

She seems to be blaming society for her lack of being able to say "No" when she means "No" - When in fact the problem seems to be her shyness or lack of self-worth.

What do you think?



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She's wrong to call it rape but she's quite correct that girls and even women are often coerced through social and peer pressure. In an extreme, where duress exists (rare but possible) it would indeed be rape because no ceases to be a viable response (due to the duress). But the real issue is the pressure put on girls to have sex - and that pressure is not strictly speaking rape - but it is coercion and it is a very real and sad phenomenon.

[Teallaura]

Eventually it will be fear that stops men from interacting from women in those situations. They will simply choose to stay away and not even try because they are afraid.

Since we are talking about out of wedlock sex I'm having a hard time thinking this is a bad thing.

And guys, you can only lay so much on the feminist doorstep. Truth is, many males have willingly capitalized on the 'free love' culture and gone further by aiding and abetting the cultural descent. I suspect it isn't 'either/or' it's 'both/and'.

[Teallaura]

I don't think it will work effectively, even pre-nups are thrown out of court because they were "signed under duress" or whatever liberal garbage speak you want to put in it's place.



...

FYI: No contract is valid if signed under duress - and never has been. That's the standard of the legal system and not unique to liberals. FYI: no contract should be valid if a party is coerced.

[fm93]

She's wrong to call it rape but she's quite correct that girls and even women are often coerced through social and peer pressure. In an extreme, where duress exists (rare but possible) it would indeed be rape because no ceases to be a viable response (due to the duress). But the real issue is the pressure put on girls to have sex - and that pressure is not strictly speaking rape - but it is coercion and it is a very real and sad phenomenon.

Finally, a thoughtful post that acknowledges (gasp!) that both sides have valid points, and that one side isn't engaging in some deliberate scheme to manipulate and destroy men.

Any liberals care to define "rape culture"?

These issues go way beyond mere "liberals vs conservatives," but anyhow, I'd say rape culture involves, for instance, fraternity members gathering near female dorms and chanting disgusting things like "No means yes, yes means anal!" and "My name is Jack, I'm a necrophiliac, I [censored] dead women and fill them with my semen." Or hearing accounts from rape victims and dismissing them with responses like "You were dressed a certain way, therefore you were asking for it" or "But you're so ugly, you should feel lucky that someone would want to rape you."

Or on a more generic level, acting as if rape is something casual to be tossed around, such as describing large margins of victory as "We friggin' RAPED the other team!"


With all that being said, I believe that real men don't put themselves or anyone else in situations of uncertainty at all. It's not easy to figure out whether a drunken "Yes" indicated genuine consent or not, but why would anyone have drunken sex in the first place? I thought sex was supposed to be something mutually enjoyed by both people; why would anyone ruin their own experience by drinking and thereby not fully remembering it the next morning?

[Paprika]

And guys, you can only lay so much on the feminist doorstep.

What else should we expect but defensiveness from someone who uses 'sexist' as a club?

It was the feminists who organised movements with a main aim being to deregulate sex; only now - after seeing decades of devastation after destroying the restraints on men's behaviour - are they only dimly beginning to realise that maybe it was a bad idea, when they were warned over and over.

Education^3. Teach girls and boys that being assertive is a good thing. Teach teens and young adults that one should be 100% sure that they want to have sex before consenting to it. And the person asking needs to make sure they don't come off as coercive.

Seriously? You think that more education is going to solve the problem?

[Zymologist]

These issues go way beyond mere "liberals vs conservatives," but anyhow, I'd say rape culture involves, for instance, fraternity members gathering near female dorms and chanting disgusting things like "No means yes, yes means anal!" and "My name is Jack, I'm a necrophiliac, I [censored] dead women and fill them with my semen." Or hearing accounts from rape victims and dismissing them with responses like "You were dressed a certain way, therefore you were asking for it" or "But you're so ugly, you should feel lucky that someone would want to rape you."

Or on a more generic level, acting as if rape is something casual to be tossed around, such as describing large margins of victory as "We friggin' RAPED the other team!"


With all that being said, I believe that real men don't put themselves or anyone else in situations of uncertainty at all. It's not easy to figure out whether a drunken "Yes" indicated genuine consent or not, but why would anyone have drunken sex in the first place? I thought sex was supposed to be something mutually enjoyed by both people; why would anyone ruin their own experience by drinking and thereby not fully remembering it the next morning?

I asked the liberals because I've only ever seen liberals use the term. Also, I've never seen anyone define it (until now). AFAICT, it's just been used as emotionally charged rhetoric. For example, I've frequently seen "rape culture" used in the context of people who think that women shouldn't walk through dangerous sections of the city late at night. The people who frequently cry "rape culture" will say that any advice, of any sort and no matter how common-sense it is, given to women in order to avoid rape is rape culture, and is in fact victim-blaming. It's just seemed to be to be an incredibly unhelpful label.

But thanks for defining it. I've never actually seen anyone do those things. Edit: Rather, I should say I'd never heard of those things.

[Teallaura]

What else should we expect but defensiveness from someone who uses 'sexist' as a club?

It was the feminists who organised movements with a main aim being to deregulate sex; only now - after seeing decades of devastation after destroying the restraints on men's behaviour - are they only dimly beginning to realise that maybe it was a bad idea, when they were warned over and over.

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Yeah, except not.

[Christianbookworm]

Seriously? You think that more education is going to solve the problem?

... I guess one can't just make people use their brains, can we? Do the reproductive organs just take over???? Is it ever possible to cure the stupidity of wanting the privileges of adulthood but none of the responsibility?

[Darth Ovious]

Since we are talking about out of wedlock sex I'm having a hard time thinking this is a bad thing.

It's bad because it creates a lack of trust between the genders. Granted pre-marital sex isn't something that should be sought after but the damage done is more than this because men end up having difficulty even trying for a relationship.

And guys, you can only lay so much on the feminist doorstep. Truth is, many males have willingly capitalized on the 'free love' culture and gone further by aiding and abetting the cultural descent. I suspect it isn't 'either/or' it's 'both/and'.

As you have noted above in your previous post about women being coerced into it by culture so have men. It's something that has been on the liberal agenda and taught to everyone for quite a while and it's something that is also pushed onto boys. When the third wave radical feminists pushed for "sexual liberation" it was met with resistance by both a lot of men and women but ultimately with the help of the media those "sex positive" feminists won out. The third wave feminists were a mixture of both men and women as well, with one notable case of men being Hugh Heffner who started playboy. His magazine was funded by third wave feminists. Of course now he is attacked by feminists for being misogynistic and he no longer identifies himself as a feminist.

I suppose I take issue with your language arguing that men have willingly capitalised on this as if to say that men as a general group are partly responsible for all this, when it was mostly third wave feminists who were responsible for advancing this culture.



ADDITION: I wanted to provide an example about what I mean in my first point. I am going to link to a scientist named Scott Aaronson in regards to his experience in going through the education system and attending sexual assault classes that are held on campuses across America. The comment number here is 171 that he made on his blog under the following article.

http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p...comment-326664

You can call that my personal psychological problem if you want, but it was strongly reinforced by everything I picked up from my environment: to take one example, the sexual-assault prevention workshops we had to attend regularly as undergrads, with their endless lists of all the forms of human interaction that “might be” sexual harassment or assault, and their refusal, ever, to specify anything that definitely wouldn’t be sexual harassment or assault. I left each of those workshops with enough fresh paranoia and self-hatred to last me through another year.

The irony here is that Scott Aaronson actually labels himself a feminist if you see and yet his experiences within all previously left him terrified and scared. In Scott Aaronson's case he was lucky enough to have met a someone and is now married, however lots of other men who go through this might just think different and might just stay away instead. On the other hand I don't think these sexual assault classes help women either and women as well could end having a distrust of men in general because of these classes.

[Darth Ovious]

FYI: No contract is valid if signed under duress - and never has been. That's the standard of the legal system and not unique to liberals. FYI: no contract should be valid if a party is coerced.

The point is they use this excuse when it is isn't true. Even if cases where the pre-nup was signed knowing full well what the situation would be you see cases afterwards where the pre-nup gets thrown out.

[Paprika]

... I guess one can't just make people use their brains, can we?

Adolescents with alcohol.

[Christianbookworm]

Adolescents with alcohol.

That explains it. Their prefrontal cortex isn't even fully developed! But why should the boy be held responsible for the dumb decision they jointly made?

[Paprika]

Or on a more generic level, acting as if rape is something casual to be tossed around, such as describing large margins of victory as "We friggin' RAPED the other team!"

You progressives can't be taken seriously as long as you still promote and excuse fake rape victims.

but why would anyone have drunken sex in the first place? I thought sex was supposed to be something mutually enjoyed by both people; why would anyone ruin their own experience by drinking and thereby not fully remembering it the next morning?

Given that drunken sex is one of the key scenarios during which campus raaaape occurs, your lack of comprehension should push you to a deeper analysis instead of spouting what is meaningless and trite.

[Paprika]

That explains it. Their prefrontal cortex isn't even fully developed! But why should the boy be held responsible for the dumb decision they jointly made?

Because males are evil, and females shouldn't be treated as responsible adults.

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Yeah, it's blatant hypocrisy, but that's how the feminists roll.

[Christianbookworm]

Because males are evil, and females shouldn't be treated as responsible adults.

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Yeah, it's blatant hypocrisy, but that's how the feminists roll.

They don't get that it isn't helpful to their case to make all women into helpless damsels in distress?