Originally posted by lilpixieofterror
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Vanderbilt University sociologist says white privilege still exist and riots prove it
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostI'd prefer something with at least a minuscule chance of being proven. As it is stated, it's just self-fulfilling prophesy: it assumes a difference in outcome that cannot be demonstrated. The mere fact that outcomes differ doesn't prove a given rationale.
If it is actually the case then the outcomes we see don't support it. Whites outnumber blacks nearly 9 to 1 - the vast majority of blacks would necessarily be competing against whites in almost all desirable positions (professional, administrative, et al) and it is ridiculous to assume the majority of the blacks who prevail in those cases are substantially superior to all the white candidates. (At 9 to 1 odds, that's silly; when you factor backgrounds that limit the number of blacks who are competitive, the ratio should be even higher.) So, if this 'white privilege' exists as described, why are we seeing such high numbers of blacks in professions and other desirable positions? Affirmative Action wasn't that effective by any account - so why the high numbers relative to expected outcome IF the theory is correct?
Better theory: it's nonsense predicated on the intuitive assumption that racism never goes away.
"Among people age 25 and older, the share of the labor force with at least a high school diploma was about 90 percent for Whites, Blacks, and Asians in 2012." If you look at this 2013 report by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, blacks are more educated than Hispanics and yet have a much higher unemployment rate than any other race taken as a whole. "Among the major race and ethnicity groups, the jobless rates in 2012 for adult Black men and women (age 20 and older) were 14.0 and 11.9 percent, respectively. The unemployment rate for adult Hispanic men was 8.9 percent, and the rate for adult Hispanic women was 10.1 percent."
Link to a study: http://thinkprogress.org/education/2...t.org/reports/
While I disagree with the emphasis on affirmative action and the lack of emphasis on high school programs, this makes a number of interesting points, including the greater responsibility of blacks to gain education to be of an employment status similar to whites of equal education.
National Bureau of Economic Research: http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html
A job applicant with a name that sounds like it might belong to an African-American - say, Lakisha Washington or Jamal Jones - can find it harder to get a job. Despite laws against discrimination, affirmative action, a degree of employer enlightenment, and the desire by some businesses to enhance profits by hiring those most qualified regardless of race, African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.Last edited by Ana Dragule; 05-27-2015, 05:35 AM.I am become death...
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThen the blacks have the privilege, not the whites. It is a lot easier for a black person to get welfare and food stamps than a white person. A friend of mine's husband died and she was raising two children on her own and her only job was working at a minimum wage daycare center (because at least she got free daycare for her youngest)
She tried multiple times to get government help and was turned down. She didn't own a house, had a 12 year old car, and lots of unpaid debt left from her husband, including his funeral. She was way below the poverty line. A couple of black friends of hers at work were in less dire straits than she was, and got all sorts of government help. The only difference? She was white. Black privilege.
And because of affirmative action, minorities, especially blacks, will get hired over whites with the same qualifications.I am become death...
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAnd they know it is solely because they are black... how?
I know someone who has some money and is not white, and he and his non-white friends, who have a decent car, get suspicious looks when they go somewhere like a certain affluent coastal city that is near his home and that is predominantly white with a bit of Asian. When a white or mostly white friend is with them, they are treated differently and have less worry that people will assume they are criminals.I am become death...
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostDo the stats support your claims or not?
I had already found this, "African Americans make up 14% of drug users but are 37% more likely to be arrested for drug offenses." on this website, http://community.babycenter.com/post...hite_privilege
But during this search, I found what appears to be pockets of increased arrest rates including targeting of blacks based on the location specific articles and previous research. I addition to the individual articles, I found this, "The statistics for 2011-2012 show that in several Shore communities, blacks accounted for up to 44 percent of arrests in towns where the black population was less than 15 percent of total residents, according to the FBI data compiled by USA Today." http://www.app.com/story/news/invest...y-nj/19247461/
Black youths between 10 and 17 were significantly more likely to be arrested of the same age range between 1980 and 2015 according to the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention: http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/...asp?ID=qa05260
Greater arrest rates for blacks regardless of juvenile or adult held true over multiple areas of crime according during the period from 1980-2009 according to the U.S. Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Statistics. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/aus8009.pdf
"Almost half of black males and nearly 40 percent of white males in the U.S. are arrested by the age of 23, according to a study in the journal Crime & Delinquency." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-49...ted-by-age-23/
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Race....IzDD5EgN.dpbs had some interesting statistics. Blacks can out-number whites among those affected by drug arrests and drug-related incarcerations. Now I recall in high school learning that the black community at least in NY or somewhere like that with inner city conditions asked for stronger legal consequences to use of a crack as blacks were most using it than in the form that whites were using it. This was requested by the black community in the hopes of reducing drug use in their community. I doubt that is as much the reason today, and especially given the fact that the statistics above showed that blacks were arrested more over multiple kinds of crime, an inequality that goes beyond who does their drug deals indoors vs. outdoors. The following website also notes the increased likelihood of white youth to have used drugs and black youth to be arrested for drugs. http://www.csdp.org/publicservice/kids.htm
Now if I may refer back to the www.app.com article I first referenced, "'It doesn't mean that police are discriminating,' David Harris, a University of Pittsburgh law professor, told USA Today. 'But it does mean it's worth looking at. It means you might have a problem and you need to pay attention.'"
If they are arrested more because of corrupt law enforcement, then that is likely a systematic problem included oppression-racism against blacks. If they are arrested more because of socio-economic problems that lead to crime, then that is another problem that public policy and social and religious organizations could better address-especially as blacks were subject to increased concentrations of and greater likelihood of oppression and reduced economic and educational opportunity in the past on the basis of race which white people were not subject to on the basis of their race. If more black people engage in crime and innocent black people are more suspected because of their skin color as a result of those who are not innocent, then that is still racialized unfairness as Tim Wise has described it-not that whites should be thought as guilty but that the innocent are suspected of not being innocent. Further, if you look at things like the stop-and-frisk discussion in the link below, whites were more likely to have illegal contraband but less likely to be frisked in part of New York.
http://sentencingproject.org/doc/pub...w%20Report.pdfI am become death...
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Originally posted by Ana Dragule View PostBecause in other cases, the whites of similar age were treated differently.
I know someone who has some money and is not white, and he and his non-white friends, who have a decent car, get suspicious looks when they go somewhere like a certain affluent coastal city that is near his home and that is predominantly white with a bit of Asian. When a white or mostly white friend is with them, they are treated differently and have less worry that people will assume they are criminals.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Ana Dragule View PostBlack folks in higher professions. Ok, how about the significantly higher unemployment rates of blacks at nearly all education levels?
"Among people age 25 and older, the share of the labor force with at least a high school diploma was about 90 percent for Whites, Blacks, and Asians in 2012." If you look at this 2013 report by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, blacks are more educated than Hispanics and yet have a much higher unemployment rate than any other race taken as a whole. "Among the major race and ethnicity groups, the jobless rates in 2012 for adult Black men and women (age 20 and older) were 14.0 and 11.9 percent, respectively. The unemployment rate for adult Hispanic men was 8.9 percent, and the rate for adult Hispanic women was 10.1 percent."
Link to a study: http://thinkprogress.org/education/2...t.org/reports/
While I disagree with the emphasis on affirmative action and the lack of emphasis on high school programs, this makes a number of interesting points, including the greater responsibility of blacks to gain education to be of an employment status similar to whites of equal education.
National Bureau of Economic Research: http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html
A job applicant with a name that sounds like it might belong to an African-American - say, Lakisha Washington or Jamal Jones - can find it harder to get a job. Despite laws against discrimination, affirmative action, a degree of employer enlightenment, and the desire by some businesses to enhance profits by hiring those most qualified regardless of race, African-Americans are twice as likely as whites to be unemployed and they earn nearly 25 percent less when they are employed.
Does not address the point: if the privilege exists as described (y'all have shifted definitions a bit on us) then the outcomes do not match it. We should not see more than a nominal number of blacks in desirable positions - which is the exact opposite of what we do see. Because of the high ratio of applicants to jobs the 'truly superior' candidate is the exception, not the rule. Most searches will end in a handful of more or less equal candidates. This is where 'white privilege' if it exists the way you describe it should show itself most obviously since subjective factors take over in this part of a placement. Blacks should, per your theory, have little chance up against their equally qualified white candidates (especially since in most cases the black candidates will be outnumbered by the white candidates) YET we routinely see blacks get positions under those circumstances. Either Affirmative Action works much better than previously supposed, or 'white privilege' simply is not much of a factor.
The mere fact that the African American community still sees high levels of poor outcomes does not in and of itself tell us why. Social and cultural factors within the African American community took over years ago as the leading indicators of poor outcomes. If you (general) want better outcomes, you have got to take a much more realistic view of the actual problems. Racism, even muted, is not even in the top ten of leading factors because we see the exact same results for those factors when they are present in the white community. 'White privilege' is a red herring that will do yet more destruction to the African American community as long as we refuse to consider other factors."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post...
Or are they automatically assuming that they are being eyed?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Ana Dragule View PostThat does not necessarily mean that in other places, a black youth would not be considered more suspicious than a white youth.
This was in Texas and I also remember it going on in California too."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostWere the whites similarly dressed? Did they behave similarly? Did someone observe all of the interactions in the store for more than a few hours? Or is this an assumption that their race is the only factor in a case of suspicion?
“Although the more direct form of discrimination was not found in our study, there was considerable evidence of more indirect (i.e., subtle) forms of discrimination. Across all trials, Black customers aroused considerably more suspicion than did White customers. After the sensor was removed from the sunglasses, White salespersons were more likely to look over repeatedly at the Black customers, as well as to follow the Black customers more closely as they tried on the sunglasses.”
http://www.consumerequality.com/pubs...hile_Black.pdf
Here is a paper that included study on consumer racial profiling. In addition to points about experience of racial profiling, the paper notes the legally affirmed validity of legal cases against retailers in racial profiling as well as discussing a study on the perceptions of randomly selected Philadelphia residents.
Recent legal case analyses by Jerome Williams, Ann Marie Harris, and Gerald Henderson have focused heavily on service-related issues in retail settings, but they have also taken note of concerns related to the suspicion of Blacks in retail settings. Through the analysis of federal and state cases, the authors found instances of subtle and overt discrimination in every type of retailer. In addition, they reported that such cases appear to be on the rise (See A. G. Harris, 2003; A. G. Harris, Henderson, & Williams, 2005; Williams, Harris, & Henderson, 2006).
Criminologists have also not begun to take interest in consumer racial profiling. Gabbidon (2003) published one of the first social scientific articles examining the subject. His research examined twenty-nine CRP cases where the plaintiffs alleged being the victims of racial profiling in retail settings. The research uncovered cases in both the federal and state courts. In addition, the cases revealed that most of the involved allegations that sales clerks and/or security personnel had followed plaintiffs around stores, enacted blanket policies related to how to treat minorities, and required minorities to provide extra identification for credit card and check purchases (Gabbidon, 2003). In addition, the analysis of the case outcomes revealed that plaintiffs were either completely or partially victorious = in nearly 60 percent of the cases. In closing, it was proposed that African American Shoppers should boycott and/or sue retailers who engage in discriminatory practices…
A recent study by Gabbidon and Higgins (2007) sought to determine the prevalence of CRP among a sample of Philadelphia area residents. Using the results form a phone survey to randomly selected residents, it was found that Black residents were ten times more likely than White residents to report having experienced CRP. Other results noted that males were more than two times likely than females to report experiencing CRP, those with more education were more likely than those with less education to report experiencing CRP, and there were no significant differences related to income level. In closing, the authors argued that since the discipline hasn’t “develop[ed} a criminological imagination” regarding racial profiling research, current racial profiling research is likely only capturing “the tip of the [racial profiling] iceberb” (Gabbidon & Higgins, 2007, P. 10)
http://www.consumerequality.org/pubs...University.pdf
“The perception of discrimination is facilitated by the notion that, despite social norms against these practices, discrimination is an omnipresent threat because Racism Exists. Both parental socialization and personal experiences with discrimination in other settings influence retail perceptions of discrimination.”
http://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_graddiss/147/
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post"Suspicious looks" doesn't tell me anything, nor does it honestly reflect on anyone except the person who is claiming that the looks are suspicious. Do they know that the looks are suspicious, or are they assuming that the looks are suspicious? Did they ask? Or are they automatically assuming that they are being eyed?Originally posted by Teallaura View PostI've had this problem and it's a difficult aspect of working within certain groups. I've had people assume I was 'eyeing' them when in fact I hadn't even really noticed them. I am naturally observant in my surroundings and people mistake it for intent.Last edited by Ana Dragule; 05-27-2015, 10:30 PM.I am become death...
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
This was in Texas and I also remember it going on in California too.I am become death...
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Originally posted by Ana Dragule View PostApparently, people have watched stores. This is from an actual case study where people did spend time observing a store. Customers asked sales people to remove tags from sunglasses before they tried the sunglasses on. Race of the customer did not appear to influence compliance with their request, but black customers did receive higher rates of being stared at and followed by staff than did white customers.
“Although the more direct form of discrimination was not found in our study, there was considerable evidence of more indirect (i.e., subtle) forms of discrimination. Across all trials, Black customers aroused considerably more suspicion than did White customers. After the sensor was removed from the sunglasses, White salespersons were more likely to look over repeatedly at the Black customers, as well as to follow the Black customers more closely as they tried on the sunglasses.”
http://www.consumerequality.com/pubs...hile_Black.pdf
Here is a paper that included study on consumer racial profiling. In addition to points about experience of racial profiling, the paper notes the legally affirmed validity of legal cases against retailers in racial profiling as well as discussing a study on the perceptions of randomly selected Philadelphia residents.
Recent legal case analyses by Jerome Williams, Ann Marie Harris, and Gerald Henderson have focused heavily on service-related issues in retail settings, but they have also taken note of concerns related to the suspicion of Blacks in retail settings. Through the analysis of federal and state cases, the authors found instances of subtle and overt discrimination in every type of retailer. In addition, they reported that such cases appear to be on the rise (See A. G. Harris, 2003; A. G. Harris, Henderson, & Williams, 2005; Williams, Harris, & Henderson, 2006).
Criminologists have also not begun to take interest in consumer racial profiling. Gabbidon (2003) published one of the first social scientific articles examining the subject. His research examined twenty-nine CRP cases where the plaintiffs alleged being the victims of racial profiling in retail settings. The research uncovered cases in both the federal and state courts. In addition, the cases revealed that most of the involved allegations that sales clerks and/or security personnel had followed plaintiffs around stores, enacted blanket policies related to how to treat minorities, and required minorities to provide extra identification for credit card and check purchases (Gabbidon, 2003). In addition, the analysis of the case outcomes revealed that plaintiffs were either completely or partially victorious = in nearly 60 percent of the cases. In closing, it was proposed that African American Shoppers should boycott and/or sue retailers who engage in discriminatory practices…
A recent study by Gabbidon and Higgins (2007) sought to determine the prevalence of CRP among a sample of Philadelphia area residents. Using the results form a phone survey to randomly selected residents, it was found that Black residents were ten times more likely than White residents to report having experienced CRP. Other results noted that males were more than two times likely than females to report experiencing CRP, those with more education were more likely than those with less education to report experiencing CRP, and there were no significant differences related to income level. In closing, the authors argued that since the discipline hasn’t “develop[ed} a criminological imagination” regarding racial profiling research, current racial profiling research is likely only capturing “the tip of the [racial profiling] iceberb” (Gabbidon & Higgins, 2007, P. 10)
http://www.consumerequality.org/pubs...University.pdf
“The perception of discrimination is facilitated by the notion that, despite social norms against these practices, discrimination is an omnipresent threat because Racism Exists. Both parental socialization and personal experiences with discrimination in other settings influence retail perceptions of discrimination.”
http://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_graddiss/147/
If it was one or two people, that might be have been the case. Too bad it wasn't.
Um, can we say 'biased sampling'? Why yes, yes, we can. Heck, the fact that it ended up in court brings accuracy of the RP finding into question. You can use such cases, but not like this did. You need a sample where the RP is demonstrable minus ending up in court (either way - people who are sue happy are much more likely to make accusations; people who are actually suspicious not surprisingly have a higher rate of ending up on the wrong side of a judge).
Also, the paper supposedly dealt with consumer issues but you only quote the court case sampling. That quote undermines the claim (see first line of bolded section). I'm not gonna bother reading a paper with that kind of obvious methodological gaff - from ANY side."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Ana Dragule View PostApparently, people have watched stores. This is from an actual case study where people did spend time observing a store. Customers asked sales people to remove tags from sunglasses before they tried the sunglasses on. Race of the customer did not appear to influence compliance with their request, but black customers did receive higher rates of being stared at and followed by staff than did white customers.
“Although the more direct form of discrimination was not found in our study, there was considerable evidence of more indirect (i.e., subtle) forms of discrimination. Across all trials, Black customers aroused considerably more suspicion than did White customers. After the sensor was removed from the sunglasses, White salespersons were more likely to look over repeatedly at the Black customers, as well as to follow the Black customers more closely as they tried on the sunglasses.”
http://www.consumerequality.com/pubs...hile_Black.pdf
Here is a paper that included study on consumer racial profiling. In addition to points about experience of racial profiling, the paper notes the legally affirmed validity of legal cases against retailers in racial profiling as well as discussing a study on the perceptions of randomly selected Philadelphia residents.
Recent legal case analyses by Jerome Williams, Ann Marie Harris, and Gerald Henderson have focused heavily on service-related issues in retail settings, but they have also taken note of concerns related to the suspicion of Blacks in retail settings. Through the analysis of federal and state cases, the authors found instances of subtle and overt discrimination in every type of retailer. In addition, they reported that such cases appear to be on the rise (See A. G. Harris, 2003; A. G. Harris, Henderson, & Williams, 2005; Williams, Harris, & Henderson, 2006).
Criminologists have also not begun to take interest in consumer racial profiling. Gabbidon (2003) published one of the first social scientific articles examining the subject. His research examined twenty-nine CRP cases where the plaintiffs alleged being the victims of racial profiling in retail settings. The research uncovered cases in both the federal and state courts. In addition, the cases revealed that most of the involved allegations that sales clerks and/or security personnel had followed plaintiffs around stores, enacted blanket policies related to how to treat minorities, and required minorities to provide extra identification for credit card and check purchases (Gabbidon, 2003). In addition, the analysis of the case outcomes revealed that plaintiffs were either completely or partially victorious = in nearly 60 percent of the cases. In closing, it was proposed that African American Shoppers should boycott and/or sue retailers who engage in discriminatory practices…
A recent study by Gabbidon and Higgins (2007) sought to determine the prevalence of CRP among a sample of Philadelphia area residents. Using the results form a phone survey to randomly selected residents, it was found that Black residents were ten times more likely than White residents to report having experienced CRP. Other results noted that males were more than two times likely than females to report experiencing CRP, those with more education were more likely than those with less education to report experiencing CRP, and there were no significant differences related to income level. In closing, the authors argued that since the discipline hasn’t “develop[ed} a criminological imagination” regarding racial profiling research, current racial profiling research is likely only capturing “the tip of the [racial profiling] iceberb” (Gabbidon & Higgins, 2007, P. 10)
http://www.consumerequality.org/pubs...University.pdf
“The perception of discrimination is facilitated by the notion that, despite social norms against these practices, discrimination is an omnipresent threat because Racism Exists. Both parental socialization and personal experiences with discrimination in other settings influence retail perceptions of discrimination.”
http://trace.tennessee.edu/utk_graddiss/147/
If it was only a couple or a few people, that might be have been the case. Too bad it wasn't.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Ana Dragule View PostThere can be different kinds of privilege. I remember reading a post a few years ago by a women who commented that because she was a slim, white blonde woman, people assumed she was better off than she was when the reality that winter was that she was in need. The alternative of that is that if people assume one has money because they are white, the assumption that the person has money impacts the way that business people treat the person-the same rational for dressing up to get better service at certain kinds of businesses/stores/services.
Newsflash: The world is not fair.
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