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  • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
    Thanks. That is what I was trying to understand. Which one of those theories do you think Swift holds too? It seems to me that if we are talking about reading to children or private schooling, there needs to be empirical research provided as a base for the philosophical musings he is engaging in. I don't think everything needs that type of research, but these two seem to be in that category. It's why it seems so out of place to me.
    No way to tell based on the article, for better or worse. If he's actually going as far as to advocate a policy change, he'd probably be leaning pretty far into correspondence theory but we'd have to read the book or journal articles to get a basic sense ... I think Adrift is absolutely right in saying that Swift appears to be positing hypotheticals based on a developed ethical framework. Whether he'd push for that framework or merely use it as part of a larger belief matrix to make or advocate policy isn't discernible from the article.

    Philosophy: the academic discipline where the smartest people in the world spend an ungodly amount of time and energy proving "1+1=2".
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
      No way to tell based on the article, for better or worse. If he's actually going as far as to advocate a policy change, he'd probably be leaning pretty far into correspondence theory but we'd have to read the book or journal articles to get a basic sense ... I think Adrift is absolutely right in saying that Swift appears to be positing hypotheticals based on a developed ethical framework. Whether he'd push for that framework or merely use it as part of a larger belief matrix to make or advocate policy isn't discernible from the article.

      Philosophy: the academic discipline where the smartest people in the world spend an ungodly amount of time and energy proving "1+1=2".
      Ah, okay. I thought since you seem well versed in philosophy that he gave off some hints. I guess that is what I was getting too. I was trying to figure out how he came to his ethical framework. Without some sort of empirical data, what he was saying seemed...well...crazy. I am going to check out that Feyerabend link. See what that is all about.
      "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
        You might say that the argument isn't sound but it is valid, meaning only that the conclusion follows from the premises. C123 was trying to claim that Swift was ignoring (or hiding) the contradictory implications of his argument when, in fact, Swift clearly accounted for the decision to justify bedtime reading and not justify private schooling.

        Again, we're talking about a professional philosopher here making a philosophical argument. That means we have to play in the philosophers' ballpark, using proper terms and establishing valid (and sound) reasons for criticism.
        Oh my! I used the wrong word. It may be a valid argument, but based upon unspoken assumptions.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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        • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
          Would anyone in this thread characterize reading to one's children as "unfairly disadvantaging other children," as Swift does?
          Certainlly not I.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
            Ah, okay. I thought since you seem well versed in philosophy that he gave off some hints. I guess that is what I was getting too. I was trying to figure out how he came to his ethical framework. Without some sort of empirical data, what he was saying seemed...well...crazy. I am going to check out that Feyerabend link. See what that is all about.
            I love Paul Feyerabend. The guy was really quite weird reading. He's most famous (hope I'm recounting this right) for arguing that the scientific method is essentially junk, that scientific progress has largely been made by just throwing things against a wall to see what sticks and scientists should focus on hypotheses and theories that "just work".

            Pretty much giving the middle finger to his entire philosophical sub-discipline at the time, if I remember right.
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
              The problem here is that folks haven't even been dealing with Swift's ideas on their merits. It's mostly been a sideshow about how either Swift/liberals are secretly planning to implement Fahrenheit 451, Goodnight Moon Edition or how even asking the question about justifying social policy on the basis of competing goods is ludicrous, despite those questions being pretty much the first thing you get introduced to when studying philosophy.
              Do keep in mind that you have posted in Civics, not Philosophy 201. You are going to get Civics appropriate answers here. Try your question in the Philosophy department if you do not want Civics oriented answers.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                I love Paul Feyerabend. The guy was really quite weird reading. He's most famous (hope I'm recounting this right) for arguing that the scientific method is essentially junk, that scientific progress has largely been made by just throwing things against a wall to see what sticks and scientists should focus on hypotheses and theories that "just work".

                Pretty much giving the middle finger to his entire philosophical sub-discipline at the time, if I remember right.
                Really? Wow. That should be an interesting read for me. Oh man, could you imagine a debate between him and Neil Degrasse Tyson (who thinks philosophy is a worthless enterprise)? I would pay to see it.
                "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  Do keep in mind that you have posted in Civics, not Philosophy 201. You are going to get Civics appropriate answers here. Try your question in the Philosophy department if you do not want Civics oriented answers.
                  Probably an admonishment better suited to the OP. If seer and others misread and misinterpret a philosophical discussion for the latest liberal outrage, it's entirely appropriate to show how the article and argument should be read. If C123 wants to level character accusations based on a clear failure to read the philosopher's own reasoning, it's appropriate to explain how his accusation is baseless. If you want to join in and claim the argument isn't philosophically valid, it's appropriate to explain the difference in the terms of art "valid" and "sound".

                  Any road, Civics is a branch of philosophy: it would be so very useful if people making very strong claims, especially claims against others' character, learned and used basic philosophical tools.
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                    Really? Wow. That should be an interesting read for me. Oh man, could you imagine a debate between him and Neil Degrasse Tyson (who thinks philosophy is a worthless enterprise)? I would pay to see it.
                    I don't remember enough of Feyerabend to say whether there might not actually be a lot of agreement between the two! I'm generally with Tyson on this one ... as an enterprise (i.e., a professional discipline), I cannot stand philosophy. I have a friend who went through undergrad with me and went on to pursue his Ph.D. in philosophy ... got the Master's degree, halfway through the Ph.D. program and just said one day that he was planning on leaving the program and "forgetting that I ever wanted to do this professionally".

                    I mean, we're still debating stuff that Aristotle brought up. I knew I was a bad influence on my kid this week when he told me that he decided that he wants to major in philosophy. We had a brief discussion regarding gainful employment after college.
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      This is the problem Jim, these so called "stupid proposals" that often start in academe find their ways into the wider culture. The Swift and Brighouse book is being taken seriously.

                      http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10385.html

                      http://www.mit.edu/~shaslang/mprg/Br...eSwiftEPPG.pdf

                      http://www.academia.edu/12234844/Wha..._Family_Values
                      Thats all good seer, but you are cherry picking. I haven't, and i'm sure you haven't read the book. If the book actually argues that parents shouldn't read to their children, in the interests of fairness and equality to those children whose parents are neglectful or ignorant, which I doubt is their point, then that is obviously idiotic, and as i said, i would be willing to bet that you can't find one liberal who would disagree that it was idiotic. You cherry pick, or are taken in by the propaganda of political operatives like Limbaugh, who cherry pick in order to demonize liberalism and progress. They have had pretty good success with this strategy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        I don't remember enough of Feyerabend to say whether there might not actually be a lot of agreement between the two! I'm generally with Tyson on this one ... as an enterprise (i.e., a professional discipline), I cannot stand philosophy. I have a friend who went through undergrad with me and went on to pursue his Ph.D. in philosophy ... got the Master's degree, halfway through the Ph.D. program and just said one day that he was planning on leaving the program and "forgetting that I ever wanted to do this professionally".

                        I mean, we're still debating stuff that Aristotle brought up. I knew I was a bad influence on my kid this week when he told me that he decided that he wants to major in philosophy. We had a brief discussion regarding gainful employment after college.
                        Are you telling me you philosophers don't rake in the big bucks? Tyson doesn't just think it's a bad enterprise, he seems to think it should be avoided completely. I can see why you might not want it as a career choice, but obviously it has its merits. I am sure Feyerabend and other philosophers (maybe you too?) would take exception with his blanket statements. I think you can chalk it up to just one of many ignorant statements he has made.

                        I'm sure your kid will make the right choice. He/she just might change their mind half way through too.
                        Last edited by Jesse; 05-08-2015, 06:29 PM.
                        "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                          Are you telling me you philosophers don't rake in the big bucks? Tyson doesn't just think it's a bad enterprise, he seems to think it should be avoided completely. I can see why you might not want it as a career choice, but obviously it has its merits. I am sure Feyerabend and other philosophers (maybe you too?) would take exception with his blanket statements. I think you can chalk it up to just one of many ignorant statements he has made.

                          I'm sure your kid will make the right choice. He just might change his mind half way through too.
                          I'm no philosopher: I got off that train at undergrad and figure you have to have at least a master's and be published before you get to call yourself that.

                          I love Tyson and cosmology too much to disagree with him on philosophy. Poor guy has enough to deal with trying to explain string theory and Hawking radiation to townies like me.

                          'Course, I also think that all philosophy courses should include Jorge Luis Borges and Umberto Eco as examples of how to make philosophy about awesome semiotics instead of boring ol' semantics ...
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            I'm no philosopher: I got off that train at undergrad and figure you have to have at least a master's and be published before you get to call yourself that.

                            I love Tyson and cosmology too much to disagree with him on philosophy. Poor guy has enough to deal with trying to explain string theory and Hawking radiation to townies like me.

                            'Course, I also think that all philosophy courses should include Jorge Luis Borges and Umberto Eco as examples of how to make philosophy about awesome semiotics instead of boring ol' semantics ...
                            Oh I see. You have to be published too? Well, I suppose you would never run out of subjects. I am going to look more into this and see if I can find any philosophers that I might like.

                            I give you permission to disagree with him . He's said some pretty brain dead things that should be called out more than they are.

                            So now I have 3 people to look up. So much homework...
                            "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                              Oh I see. You have to be published too? Well, I suppose you would never run out of subjects. I am going to look more into this and see if I can find any philosophers that I might like.

                              I give you permission to disagree with him . He's said some pretty brain dead things that should be called out more than they are.

                              So now I have 3 people to look up. So much homework...
                              As an ironically big fan of existentialism, I should also recommend Kierkegaard. "The Sickness Unto Death" was a good read.

                              And you're a much better person than I am if you're willing to dive deep into any of this stuff. I gave it all up for stories about labyrinths and longitude.
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                I love Tyson and cosmology too much to disagree with him on philosophy.


                                'Course, I also think that all philosophy courses should include Jorge Luis Borges and Umberto Eco as examples of how to make philosophy about awesome semiotics instead of boring ol' semantics ...
                                Never knew that Eco was a philosopher. Always figured he was a linguist or something. I love his novels. Don't know anything about Borges.

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