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Pacifist or (insert opposite of that here)?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    That's exactly how John Stackhouse argues it (down to extensive exegesis of "shalom"). I find his arguments persuasive.
    The fact that there needs to be extensive argumentation for this instead of it being common sense only reveals how far the fall has been.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      The fact that there needs to be extensive argumentation for this instead of it being common sense only reveals how far the fall has been.
      Pacifism was very prevalent in the first few centuries of the church, to the point where there are far more extant voices promoting it than otherwise. This isn't a new development by any means.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #33
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Pacifism was very prevalent in the first few centuries of the church
        Which reveals how great the fall had been.

        Next.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          Which reveals how great the fall had been.

          Next.
          Such curt dismissal of the earlier voices of the church is audacious.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #35
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            Such curt dismissal of the earlier voices of the church

            I was criticising them for their blatantly unScriptural view on violence but not dismissing all that they have to say.

            is audacious.
            It's that going to be your new catchphrase? It has zero argumentative value.

            Try again.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              The most relevant Bible verse here seems to be "blessed are the peacemakers". But sometimes I wonder exactly what Jesus had in mind. Did he mean interpersonal peace (as in mediating between people who are feuding), or physical violence, or both?
              I tend to think that the most probable interpretation of what Jesus had to say on the subject of non-violence was that he intended for his movement to be a non-violent reform movement (eg akin to that of Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, or the later Nelson Mandela) in contrast to the many documented reform movements of his time where violence or open warfare were standard tactics.

              I tend to think it goes too far to read any sort of overarching philosophy of pacifism into Jesus' words. Just because he choose to use non-violent means to further his movement, doesn't necessarily imply any sort of systematic endorsement of a paradigm of pacifism. Although his words are obviously consistent with such a view, they don't really mandate it. Although, as you note, the relatively widespread nature of general commitment to pacifism within the early Christian church is an interesting factor worth considering (in the sense that it may serve as a general indication of what Jesus' teachings were, beyond what is preserved in the gospels and/or tells us how the gospel teachings were understood in that cultural context).
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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              • #37
                Originally posted by TheBaldie View Post
                Pacifism is an ideal that should be striven for
                No it isn't. I'm not even sure how you can square this with the rest of your post.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  the relatively widespread nature of general commitment to pacifism within the early Christian church
                  Early Christian pacifism is mostly a myth. Sure, they didn't violently rebel against Rome, but I'm not sure how you can call people who served in the Roman military pacifists. Christ Himself praised a Roman Centurion.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment

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