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Pacifist or (insert opposite of that here)?

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  • #16
    I wonder how many people are the same degree of pacifist (or not) behind the wheel of a car as compared to not.

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I wonder how many people are the same degree of pacifist (or not) behind the wheel of a car as compared to not.
      I'm a pacifist when it comes to driving. I know a bit too much physics to get angry amidst speeding vehicles.
      Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
        I'm a pacifist when it comes to driving. I know a bit too much physics to get angry amidst speeding vehicles.
        I used to be somewhat aggressive or defensive when driving, but have matured a bit (if only in that area) realizing that there are idiots out there who will do really stupid stuff, like try to run you off the road or shoot you. My life is worth more than that, and I've learned to back off and let them be idiots. Especially when I have others in the car - wife, grandkids, Jake...
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I wonder how many people are the same degree of pacifist (or not) behind the wheel of a car as compared to not.

          I've been annoyed by idiot drivers, such as people who think intersections are places to park or who think speed limits don't apply to them.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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          • #20
            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            I've been annoyed by idiot drivers, such as people who think intersections are places to park or who think speed limits don't apply to them.
            Yeah, my thing is idiots who text while driving, and forget they're driving.... either not moving when the light turns green, or driving slower than the posted limits cause they're not paying attention, or constantly almost running off the road.....

            But, I try to remind myself --- let them be idiots, don't compete with them to be a bigger one.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              I think we're seeing here in the responses that there is no 'one size fits all' approach to pacifism. If one's first question about a potential conflict is 'How can we resolve this situation without aggression and violence?' then YOU might be a pacifist. Will there be cases when violence or aggression are the only legitimate means to a just end? Probably.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                I think we're seeing here in the responses that there is no 'one size fits all' approach to pacifism. If one's first question about a potential conflict is 'How can we resolve this situation without aggression and violence?' then YOU might be a pacifist. Will there be cases when violence or aggression are the only legitimate means to a just end? Probably.
                Reasonable people like you really hack me off.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                  I think we're seeing here in the responses that there is no 'one size fits all' approach to pacifism. If one's first question about a potential conflict is 'How can we resolve this situation without aggression and violence?' then YOU might be a pacifist. Will there be cases when violence or aggression are the only legitimate means to a just end? Probably.
                  A question that a Christian pacifist may ask is whether we are called to be agents of justice. We could consider the oft-mentioned scenario where an intruder has entered the house and is threatening to kill one's family. The options being A) allow your family to be murdered or B) kill the intruder.

                  A Christian pacifist might say that if one knows his family is "in Christ" and is reasonably secure in the knowledge of their salvation, is it more important that they continue to live their earthly lives or is it more important to try and provide the intruder (who, at the least, is in the process of committing a moral sin) as much of a chance for salvation and repentance as possible?

                  More simply, do we place higher immediate value the lives of our beloved or the soul of our enemy?
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    A question that a Christian pacifist may ask is whether we are called to be agents of justice. We could consider the oft-mentioned scenario where an intruder has entered the house and is threatening to kill one's family. The options being A) allow your family to be murdered or B) kill the intruder.

                    A Christian pacifist might say that if one knows his family is "in Christ" and is reasonably secure in the knowledge of their salvation, is it more important that they continue to live their earthly lives or is it more important to try and provide the intruder (who, at the least, is in the process of committing a moral sin) as much of a chance for salvation and repentance as possible?

                    More simply, do we place higher immediate value the lives of our beloved or the soul of our enemy?
                    Yes, I agree, and some Christian martyrs in the past have made brave decisions concerning this.

                    In the sermon on the mount, Jesus said 'Blessed are the peace makers'. I think one has to assume He meant it. Being a peace maker is not easy. It requires a great deal of courage to refrain from violence. I am always most impressed, for example, by those victims of violent crime who find the courage to forgive the perpetrator and may even advocate against the death penalty.

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                    • #25
                      I had forgotten my Quaker friends, many of whom have a radical commitment to pacifism. I respect them greatly.

                      I have SERIOUSLY considered becoming one.

                      http://www.capecodquakers.org/intro_quakers.html

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I used to be somewhat aggressive or defensive when driving, but have matured a bit (if only in that area) realizing that there are idiots out there who will do really stupid stuff, like try to run you off the road or shoot you. My life is worth more than that, and I've learned to back off and let them be idiots. Especially when I have others in the car - wife, grandkids, Jake...
                        Yes, brother. I learned that several years ago when I was still working. I got a ticket and decided I was not in that big of a hurry. I wished I had expressed my gratitude to the cop who wrote me up. But I came to my senses a bit too late.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Reasonable people like you really hack me off.
                          No more of that sort of thing, Pman.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                          • #28
                            The most relevant Bible verse here seems to be "blessed are the peacemakers". But sometimes I wonder exactly what Jesus had in mind. Did he mean interpersonal peace (as in mediating between people who are feuding), or physical violence, or both? If it's actual physical violence, it's usually impossible to stop without engaging in some force yourself. This should mean taking reasonable steps and no more. I think this would mean that Sherman's March to the Sea during the Civil War was out of line as it was wanton targeting of civilians.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              The most relevant Bible verse here seems to be "blessed are the peacemakers".
                              Blessed are those who make shalom, which often requires much violence to destroy the wicked as God Himself demonstrates.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                Blessed are those who make shalom, which often requires much violence to destroy the wicked as God Himself demonstrates.
                                That's exactly how John Stackhouse argues it (down to extensive exegesis of "shalom"). I find his arguments persuasive.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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