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Pacifist or (insert opposite of that here)?

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  • Pacifist or (insert opposite of that here)?

    I've been wondering on every ones stance on the above are you a pacifist or (I still don't really know what the opposite is)?

    I for one am not a pacifist but my Brother who is believes in a more non-violent form of pacifism.
    Even to the extent of if he was getting robbed for the sake of his family he "would give them whatever they want."
    Now maybe I don't understand cause I'm way younger than him, and don't have a family, but I don't understand why anyone would support pacifism to the point of not fighting back.(in some cases I know my brother would defend himself though).
    Maybe this has something with him being a Pastor, but I don't know.

    So theist or atheist I wanna know why or why not you're a pacifist or not.

    (this thread probably needs to be moved I don't know)
    "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
    "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
    Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

  • #2
    Pacifism as philosophy is a personal guarantee of freedom for unprovoked aggression. It's a primary declaration of lack of functions in defense at best and lack of loyalties to one's present order at worst. Functionally most non-female pacifists tend toward effeminacy, because it's easier to justify your lack of fighting prowess via cheap philosophy than it is to attempt to improve it through difficult and expensive training. Still won't mean you don't get pillaged/burned along with everything else when the invaders come through.

    Note that someone who claims pacifism but works via persuasion, financialization, or other non-lethal means to ensure that men with guns n' muscles arrest one's enemies is not a pacifist, but a dissembler, or "liar" for the cheap seats. But consistency is never the strong suit of the pacifist, as the philosophy reaches its breakdown point much earlier due to its announcement being an active invitation to thieves and thugs. Often the pacifist may prefer them to any representatives of the established order, as chaos is usually an excellent environment for non-lethal influence to get away with underhanded tactics that would be frowned on by normals.

    In summary, pacifism is ninety-nine times out of hundred a pretense, and among those who sincerely believe in it very few have written philosophies that hold up under stress(they surrendered immediately to more robust and consistent philosophies.)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
      Pacifism as philosophy is a personal guarantee of freedom for unprovoked aggression. It's a primary declaration of lack of functions in defense at best and lack of loyalties to one's present order at worst. Functionally most non-female pacifists tend toward effeminacy, because it's easier to justify your lack of fighting prowess via cheap philosophy than it is to attempt to improve it through difficult and expensive training. Still won't mean you don't get pillaged/burned along with everything else when the invaders come through.

      Note that someone who claims pacifism but works via persuasion, financialization, or other non-lethal means to ensure that men with guns n' muscles arrest one's enemies is not a pacifist, but a dissembler, or "liar" for the cheap seats. But consistency is never the strong suit of the pacifist, as the philosophy reaches its breakdown point much earlier due to its announcement being an active invitation to thieves and thugs. Often the pacifist may prefer them to any representatives of the established order, as chaos is usually an excellent environment for non-lethal influence to get away with underhanded tactics that would be frowned on by normals.

      In summary, pacifism is ninety-nine times out of hundred a pretense, and among those who sincerely believe in it very few have written philosophies that hold up under stress(they surrendered immediately to more robust and consistent philosophies.)
      So basically you're not a pacifist.
      "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
      "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
      Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
        So basically you're not a pacifist.
        Weren't you supposedly interested in the why too?

        Pacifism abandons the responsibility of upholding the social order when necessary. It appears to stem from distaste of [physical] violence which then seeks some rational sort of grounding to excuse it, rather than reasoning from what is good to determine if and when certain types of violence and conflict are appropriate. As far as I can tell it arises in privileged situations, ie. stable states/communities with little physical threats from within or without, otherwise in normal circumstances it is quickly wiped out for obvious reasons.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
          So basically you're not a pacifist.
          No man should be, the men that are are either opportunistic liars(women) or extremely naive and trusting (children). Or they have no feeling either way (robots).

          Pacifism is a symptom, very rarely the disease.

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          • #6
            Pacifism is an ideal that should be striven for, though I prefer some form of a Just War Theory. If my mother was about to be raped in front of my eyes and I could stop it by beating her attacker up, I'd do it. Just as Christ took a whip of cords to the Temple to drive out the money lenders, or when YHWH Himself sided with the Israelite Army. Violence is not inherently bad, it's the cause that is fought for that is bad or good.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TheBaldie View Post
              Pacifism is an ideal that should be striven for, though I prefer some form of a Just War Theory. If my mother was about to be raped in front of my eyes and I could stop it by beating her attacker up, I'd do it. Just as Christ took a whip of cords to the Temple to drive out the money lenders, or when YHWH Himself sided with the Israelite Army. Violence is not inherently bad, it's the cause that is fought for that is bad or good.
              Welcome Baldie...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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              • #8
                I avoid conflict in my personal life, but I'm not a pacifist. I was in the military for a number of years. I think that defensive action is quite appropriate, and offensive action is justifiable in cases. There are bad people in the world, and sometimes violence is the best available response to them.
                Last edited by Yttrium; 05-03-2015, 04:36 PM.
                Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

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                • #9
                  Modified pacifist - well, sorta. I do not believe every form of aggression merits a violent response (like Epo's PA attack on women above). That would technically be a form of pacifism. I hold a Just War view and accept that some aggression is not only necessary but the moral right. Choosing for example not to defend oneself is perfectly acceptable (advisability is a different issue) but standing by while capable of defending another and not doing so is not.

                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                  • #10
                    I guess I'm a pacifist, because hurting other people is wrong.

                    It's not so much that I theoretically oppose all possible violence under any circumstances, as it is that my bar to justify violence is so high that it's close to unmeetable. I accept the theoretical possibility that there might exist a just war out there somewhere... I just haven't seen it yet, so maybe I'm just 99% pacifist. But then I am also fine with the theoretical possibility that people fighting for their civil rights might need to cause targeted harm to achieve their ends, although again my bar for what is justifiable in that regard is so high that very little ends up being justifiable, so I sort of end up being 99% pacifist once again.

                    ~shrug~

                    I can't say this is a view that's relevant all that much in any practical day to day way. I've never had occasion to be in any sort of actual fight or do any kind of violence, but I would certainly never join the military, and I would be a conscientious objector if there was a compulsory draft.

                    PS. Would I defend my own life if physically attacked myself? Yes, with a minimum of necessary force up to and including lethal force if absolutely necessary.
                    Would I defend the life of someone else I saw physically attacked in my presence? Yes, with a minimum of necessary force up to and including lethal force if absolutely necessary.
                    Last edited by Starlight; 05-03-2015, 04:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Choosing for example not to defend oneself is perfectly acceptable (advisability is a different issue) but standing by while capable of defending another and not doing so is not.
                      I want to amen this portion of your post.

                      ETA: I am not a pacifist. I do think people, including Americans, go to war too easily. Both World Wars were justifiable in my opinion, as was our part in them. Later wars not so much.
                      Last edited by Jedidiah; 05-03-2015, 05:30 PM.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                      • #12
                        I believe in pacifying enemies. Does that make me a "pacifist"

                        ...I hope it doesn't make me a pacifier...
                        Last edited by jordanriver; 05-03-2015, 05:37 PM.
                        To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                          I've been wondering on every ones stance on the above are you a pacifist or (I still don't really know what the opposite is)?

                          I for one am not a pacifist but my Brother who is believes in a more non-violent form of pacifism.
                          Even to the extent of if he was getting robbed for the sake of his family he "would give them whatever they want."
                          Now maybe I don't understand cause I'm way younger than him, and don't have a family, but I don't understand why anyone would support pacifism to the point of not fighting back.(in some cases I know my brother would defend himself though).
                          Maybe this has something with him being a Pastor, but I don't know.

                          So theist or atheist I wanna know why or why not you're a pacifist or not.

                          (this thread probably needs to be moved I don't know)
                          I made a decision (that I've mostly kept) after reading Yoder's "The Politics of Jesus" that I'd buy a copy for anyone interested in the Mennonite approach to pacifism and willing to read a bit of somewhat dry theology.

                          PM me with your e-mail if you're interested and I'll send you an Amazon credit to get it. Even if you don't buy what Yoder & Folks are sellin', it's a good way to get inside the mind of Christian pacifism.
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Epoetker View Post
                            No man should be, the men that are are either opportunistic liars(women) or extremely naive and trusting (children). Or they have no feeling either way (robots).

                            Pacifism is a symptom, very rarely the disease.
                            Got to show your hatred of women at some point during the day, eh?
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              I guess I'm a pacifist, because hurting other people is wrong.
                              Unless of course, they happen to be three months old, younger, or unborn. Than you think their lives are disposable and therefore they can be murdered at will.
                              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 05-03-2015, 06:42 PM.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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