Bishop of Manchester: Britain has a moral duty to accept refugees from its wars

[seer]

My name ain't Leno, my jaw is no where near that big.

I'll try to find it, I just came back from work and I'm bushed.

opps!

[seer]

... are you entirely glossing over the distinction between Israeli settlements )opulated by Israeli citizens and defended by Israeli armed forces) in Palestinian territory, and Palestinian citizens living peacefully under Israeli jurisdiction? Israeli settlements in the West bank undermine the sovereignty of any Palestinian state, while Palestinian citizens living peacefully in Israel only undermine the claim that Palestinians as such present an existential threat to Israel.

Sheesh, why do the settlements need protection in the West Bank? Do you think if the West Bank was populated by Quakers there would be any concern about the safety of the Jewish settlements? And that just shows that the Jews are more just and accepting - the Arabs in Israel proper are safe. But like I said, Israel gave back all of Gaza (according to Oslo) and what did it get them - thousands of rocket attacks. Do your really think they need that coming from the West Bank?

[Leonhard]

Lenohard, can you link me to something about this. I have read a lot about these agreements over the years and have not seen this one.]

My name ain't Leno, my jaw is no where near that big.

I'll try to find it, I just came back from work and I'm bushed.

[Spartacus]

Lenohard, can you link me to something about this. I have read a lot about these agreements over the years and have not seen this one.




That is not what I asked: The Palestinians want all Jews out of the West Bank (like what they got in Gaza). There are around 200,000 Jew presently living there. Would it be fair then for the Jews to remove the 400,000 Palestinians from Israel proper?

... are you entirely glossing over the distinction between Israeli settlements )opulated by Israeli citizens and defended by Israeli armed forces) in Palestinian territory, and Palestinian citizens living peacefully under Israeli jurisdiction? Israeli settlements in the West bank undermine the sovereignty of any Palestinian state, while Palestinian citizens living peacefully in Israel only undermine the claim that Palestinians as such present an existential threat to Israel.

[seer]

During one of the negotiations the Palestinians were ready to accept the Two State solution (which was the original plan in 1948 btw, until the Zionists decided to upgrade the proposal a One State solution in their own favour), if only The State of Israel would take back the territories it conquered in 1967. The State of Israel refused, and since they're the ones with the power in that situation, the fact that there is no State of Palestine, is largely the fault of the State of Israel.

Lenohard, can you link me to something about this. I have read a lot about these agreements over the years and have not seen this one.

The State of Israel has since they conquered that territory done everything they can settle it, and stake a claim to it. The fact remains though that it would be significantly easier to move those living there, than it was for the Palestinians when the State of Israel went on a conquest.

That is not what I asked: The Palestinians want all Jews out of the West Bank (like what they got in Gaza). There are around 200,000 Jew presently living there. Would it be fair then for the Jews to remove the 400,000 Palestinians from Israel proper?

[Darth Executor]

Israel committed no genocide, not even when it took Canaan. Several people surrendered and became part of Israel.

That is genocide too. Genocide is not limited only to killing (which isn't what Israel is doing anyway).

Where as various groups in The State of Israel only considers ethnic jews to be legitimate jews. Which is another reason why modern judaism has little to do with the Jews at the time of Christ.

The state of israel is a secular state and while it may only consider ethnic jews to be legitimate jews it has no problem considering non-jews legitimate citizens seeing how they have sizable muslim palestinian minorities they get along with about as well as any multicultural state can be expected to.

I don't care. I'm not a pacifist

Then don't bring it up.

I believe that wars can be fought for just reasons, and that when they do its not a matter of everything-goes. Wars are horrible, but wars aren't sin-fests. Christ reigns even during war time. Even on the battle field. Disobedience to him on the battle field is disobedience to him period.

What you consider disobedience sure lines up with how war was waged with God in charge. Maybe you think you're entitled to tell God how to do things?

Then your support of wars will only accidentally align with it being good or bad, and you're dismissing what is effectively the Bible's own teachings on this. Suit yourself.

lol @ the member of a madhouse church that ignores its own teachings and actions and is currently ruled by a gay rapist cabal talking about the Bible's own teachings. The Bible's teachings on war do not align with Just War so there is no reason to care about it.

[Darth Executor]

During one of the negotiations the Palestinians were ready to accept the Two State solution (which was the original plan in 1948 btw, until the Zionists decided to upgrade the proposal a One State solution in their own favour), if only The State of Israel would take back the territories it conquered in 1967. The State of Israel refused, and since they're the ones with the power in that situation, the fact that there is no State of Palestine, is largely the fault of the State of Israel.

It's not the duty of the strong to submit to the weak, it's the duty of the weak to submit to the strong. The Palestinians started an ill-advised war and were punished for it, they should've accepted it instead of trying to gain what they can't have. And people like you should stop goading them into suicidal wars.

[Leonhard]

Well actually no, the Palestinians will not be satisfied without the right of return.

During one of the negotiations the Palestinians were ready to accept the Two State solution (which was the original plan in 1948 btw, until the Zionists decided to upgrade the proposal a One State solution in their own favour), if only The State of Israel would take back the territories it conquered in 1967. The State of Israel refused, and since they're the ones with the power in that situation, the fact that there is no State of Palestine, is largely the fault of the State of Israel.

The Palestinians want all Jews out of the West Bank (like what they got in Gaza). There are around 200,000 Jew presently living there.

The State of Israel has since they conquered that territory done everything they can settle it, and stake a claim to it. The fact remains though that it would be significantly easier to move those living there, than it was for the Palestinians when the State of Israel went on a conquest.

[seer]

Actually most of the Palestinians are quite satisfied with the original plan for the two state solution. It would require The State of Israel to pull out of the territories they conquered from the Palestinians in 1967, which amounts to a very small amount of The State of Israel.

Well actually no, the Palestinians will not be satisfied without the right of return. Return of refugees to Israel proper. That will never happen, if it did Israel would no longer be a Jewish state in one generation. And let me ask you a question Len. The Palestinians want all Jews out of the West Bank (like what they got in Gaza). There are around 200,000 Jew presently living there. Would it be fair then for the Jews to remove the 400,000 Palestinians from Israel proper? And the other big sticking point is Jerusalem. The Palestinians want a big portion of that city.

[Leonhard]

Don't we also sent money to the Palestinians?

The American government does not give Palestine any kind of foreign military aid. It does to Israel, and produces hardware for them.

It wasn't ethnic cleansing - not even close... What are you talking about Len? Israel is strong enough to have emptied the West Bank and Gaza of all Arabs years ago.

The Lipkin government was well on its way to this. Thankfully Ariel Sharon stopped the madness before it proceeded, and had Israel pull out of Gaza which they had recently occupied in those days. And now The State of Israel is considering doing the exact same thing again, and they've recently bombed several civilian areas to pieces. Have fun defending this.

Yes, the Jewish people want and need a defensible home land.

Do you agree that the Palestinians deserve their own state too, equally as much as the people in The State of Israel?

And again when Israel gave back Gaza what did they get in return?

Do you agree that The State of Israel has yet to recognise The State of Palestine? That they've made it basically impossible for the Palestinians to engage in trades, and that they intentionally keep the place a ghetto, and they often attack it? There's no doubt that this is what they're doing.

They will not ever accept a Jewish state.

Actually most of the Palestinians are quite satisfied with the original plan for the two state solution. It would require The State of Israel to pull out of the territories they conquered from the Palestinians in 1967, which amounts to a very small amount of The State of Israel.

Guess who refused to do that? Hint: It wasn't the Palestinians.

[seer]

Its immoral to start a war without the intention of winning, and without there being a reasonable possibility of winning. I am not disputing that. Be that as it may, I'm not fighting the war The State of Israel is fighting, I'm questioning the American government sending them money at a tune of 3 billion dollars every year.

Don't we also sent money to the Palestinians?

There is no doubt that The State of Israel has overreached severely. Look at what Darth Executor is saying. You can either defend the ethnic cleansing, or you can argue that its immoral, there's no third way.

It wasn't ethnic cleansing - not even close.

What's wrong about that word? The State of Israel considers that country theirs, and refuses to recognise that this country has a right to be recognised, and so wants to invade it, drive out the people there and claim it for its own glory.

What are you talking about Len? Israel is strong enough to have emptied the West Bank and Gaza of all Arabs years ago.

Does The State of Israel consider Palestine as being a sovereign state? No it doesn't. It doesn't recognize that the Palestinians actually have a rightful claim to that territory, equivalent, to what The State of Israel has. The only difference is that one side is backed by American billions and military hardware, and the other isn't.

Yes, the Jewish people want and need a defensible home land. And again when Israel gave back Gaza what did they get in return?

I don't blame the Palestinian terrorist groups who don't recognise The State of Israel. Despite propaganda in the US, there's nothing divine about how The State of Israel came to be. Originally in 1948 a two state solution was proposed, but thanks to Zionist machination this was turned into creating The State of Israel, at the exclusion of The State of Palestine.

Yes, and Israel was attacked by the Arabs almost immediately. They will not ever accept a Jewish state. And that old friend is the core of the problem.

[Leonhard]

Israel genocided people who attacked them while they were weak when they became strong.

Israel committed no genocide, not even when it took Canaan. Several people surrendered and became part of Israel. Where as various groups in The State of Israel only considers ethnic jews to be legitimate jews. Which is another reason why modern judaism has little to do with the Jews at the time of Christ.

Early Christian pacifism is a lie concocted by pacifists.

I don't care. I'm not a pacifist. I believe that wars can be fought for just reasons, and that when they do its not a matter of everything-goes. Wars are horrible, but wars aren't sin-fests. Christ reigns even during war time. Even on the battle field. Disobedience to him on the battle field is disobedience to him period.

As for Just War theory, I don't subscribe to it and have zero interest in subscribing to it.

Then your support of wars will only accidentally align with it being good or bad, and you're dismissing what is effectively the Bible's own teachings on this. Suit yourself.

[Leonhard]

whether you follow the just war theory or not the aim of war is to win.

Its immoral to start a war without the intention of winning, and without there being a reasonable possibility of winning. I am not disputing that. Be that as it may, I'm not fighting the war The State of Israel is fighting, I'm questioning the American government sending them money at a tune of 3 billion dollars every year.

Did Israel overreach? I have no idea, I wasn't there

There is no doubt that The State of Israel has overreached severely. Look at what Darth Executor is saying. You can either defend the ethnic cleansing, or you can argue that its immoral, there's no third way.

Really... you are going to use the word lebensraum?

What's wrong about that word? The State of Israel considers that country theirs, and refuses to recognise that this country has a right to be recognised, and so wants to invade it, drive out the people there and claim it for its own glory.

But the Jewish state is doing no such thing. Listen if the West Bank and Gaza were populated with Quakers we would not be having this conversation - the fact is they are bordered by a people and a political system that refuses even to recognize the Jewish state's right to exist. How do you even deal with such a people.

Does The State of Israel consider Palestine as being a sovereign state? No it doesn't. It doesn't recognize that the Palestinians actually have a rightful claim to that territory, equivalent, to what The State of Israel has. The only difference is that one side is backed by American billions and military hardware, and the other isn't.

I don't blame the Palestinian terrorist groups who don't recognise The State of Israel. Despite propaganda in the US, there's nothing divine about how The State of Israel came to be. Originally in 1948 a two state solution was proposed, but thanks to Zionist machination this was turned into creating The State of Israel, at the exclusion of The State of Palestine.

If you want to blaim the trouble on anyone, blame the Zionists.

[Darth Executor]

The OT laments war several times in several places.

Which doesn't change the fact that Israel genocided people who attacked them while they were weak when they became strong. Starting to see the analogy?

From a careful study of all relevant texts, the theory of Just War emerged in the Augustinian period of Christianity. Earlier Christians had tended to consider soldiers unworthy of being Christians, unless they literally put down their swords (Tertullian). It was clear that in some limited circumstances war could be justified. I don't think Israel's war against Palestine is justified.

Early Christian pacifism is a lie concocted by pacifists. And you got it backwards, it's Palestine's war since they started it. As for Just War theory, I don't subscribe to it and have zero interest in subscribing to it.

That's pretty much what they're doing.

Yes, and I don't see the part where it's my business or why I should lift a finger to end it. Though I guess I can see why you might be upset since people like you are the reason why it got to this point in the first place.

[seer]

Lets lay out the principles of Just War as they exist int the Bible and has been taught by the Church.

First of all there must be just cause. I agree that The State of Israel has a just cause, it wants to protect its citizens from terrorists attacks occurring from within the Gaza Strip and other places that borders the country. Secondly The State of Israel is a competent government to enact this, and I'm not disputing that it has the rights to do so.

Proportionality has to be considered when you're engaging in war, which is one of the principles of Just War. Otherwise there would be a presumption towards aggression and more violence. The evil committed in the war, must not vastly outstrip the evil it tries to prevent. Otherwise the war will be unjust. Israel's attacks on the Palestinian people fails this severely. They're specifically targeting civilian populations, which also calls into question whether they have the right intention. Is this really about putting an end to a threat, or is about punishing the Palestine people? The latter would be evil, and is not something we should have anything to do with.

Finally it must be the last resort. All other reasonable options must have been explored. Since its not unreasonable for the The State of Israel to pull out of the territories it took in 1967, and to give recognition as a state to Palestine (which it already has in the eyes of many countries, and hopefully soon the US as well), I don't think anyone can claim that this has been covered as well.

And those are just the considerations for when you're about to start a war, there's further principles for how war is to be conducted once its underway. Christians are not free to simply say that anything goes during war time.

Hence I think Christians ought to be suspicious, and distance themselves from Israel's attacks on Palestine.


When you're defending yourself, do you kill your attacker, his family, those who happened to live in his apartment and his colleagues as well? Yes, that will take care of your aggressor, but it is not necessary.

Again Len, whether you follow the just war theory or not the aim of war is to win. Israel had a specific goals in Gaza. One was to end the threat, the other, as in any war is to minimize losses on your side. Did Israel overreach? I have no idea, I wasn't there - perhaps the causalities were actually less than they could have been considering the goals.

Have you forgotten that the State of Israel just suddenly waltzed in with tanks and drove out the Palestinian people from Gaza, just because it felt it had to expand its lebensraum? They were not ceding anything significant here, Sharon just stopped the insane crusade the Lipkin government had was heading towards driving out the Palestinians by force of gun if necessary.

Really Len, you are going to use the word lebensraum? Your bias has blinded you. And I'm not sure what you are speaking of here - when Israel took Gaza from Egypt in the 67 war? In any case Israel gave it all back - and what did it get them? Rockets....

Unfortunately it seems like Israel is heading back towards that mentality.



What's propaganda about it. Is The State of Israel, or isn't it, heading towards the eradication of the Palestinian people? If it did that, you can either call it genocide, or something less than the truth.

But the Jewish state is doing no such thing. Listen if the West Bank and Gaza were populated with Quakers we would not be having this conversation - the fact is they are bordered by a people and a political system that refuses even to recognize the Jewish state's right to exist. How do you even deal with such a people.