Originally posted by Paprika
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Bishop of Manchester: Britain has a moral duty to accept refugees from its wars
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWell every country has the right to defend itself."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View Post... which is different than preemptively attacking another country. But if you're saying that Iran has the right to defend itself from a preemptive Israeli attack, well ...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAre you an idiot Sam? Iran is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state. Why shouldn't the Jews be worried - the sooner they strike the better.
"They threatened us in a non-specific way" will not justify an attack on another country being "defense". It would, however, give Iran the right to retaliate as "defense," under your statement "Every country has the right to defend itself."
But you're just looking for a way to make war with Iran, which you want regardless, more palatable to folks who don't so easily brush off the enormous human cost of such decisions.
Won't work ... at least not today. We should never again underestimate just how easily wars without justification can be sold once a generation of people forget their own history."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostTry that in a bar and see who gets charged with battery, seer.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostAre you joking Sam? If I was in a restaurant with my family and some one threatened to kill or harm us - believe me, there will be blood... And any "normal" man would do the same.
Still, you might think that's justified ... just don't pretend that it's acting in defense."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostAnd if all you had was someone shouting at you without posing a credible threat to safety, you'd be staring down a battery charge, as normal people don't draw blood just because someone has a big mouth.
Still, you might think that's justified ... just don't pretend that it's acting in defense.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense Sam, in such cases how do I or Israel know that this isn't credible? I'm not just speaking of a loud mouth, but of someone threatening life and limb. And I don't know who you hang around with but I don't know a man who wouldn't do the same.
Iran's a blowhard. And Israel knows it. But it's useful to pretend otherwise for the folks who are just itching to do the dirty work of bombing civilians for no good reason."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense Sam, in such cases how do I or Israel know that this isn't credible? I'm not just speaking of a loud mouth, but of someone threatening life and limb. And I don't know who you hang around with but I don't know a man who wouldn't do the same.
This is not an act of self-preservation by The State of Israel anymore. They're actively trying to make the living conditions of the Palestinian people harder, denying them recognition as a state and denying them territories claimed suddenly by Israel in 1967. Their end goal is to make the Palestinians move, or to exterminate them.
Though I honestly think that any semblance of American support would vanish if The State of Israel implemented a 'Final solution' to the 'Palestine problem'.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostMaybe you should read up on OT laws, the Palestinians would have been obliterated in war.
I don't dispute that they are now intentionally turning Palestinian territories into unlivable ghettos with the intent of ethnically cleansing them and taking all their land.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostAnyone "threatening life and limb" in same style as Iran has clearly shown no actual intent to cause immediate harm ... we usually call them "blowhards." And if you try to beg off an arrest for battery by saying "Well, how could I know that he wasn't serious?" you might be lucky and get the charge dropped to only aggravated battery.
Iran's a blowhard. And Israel knows it. But it's useful to pretend otherwise for the folks who are just itching to do the dirty work of bombing civilians for no good reason.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostIf you mean by this analogy, "Does The State of Israel have the right to use proper force to protect itself against its enemies." The answer is yes, I'm not disputing that. However that's not what its doing anymore. When 50-100 Palestines die to every Israeli casuality, 99% of which ostensible are civilians uninvolved in the terrorist attacks, then there's no longer an act of protection.
This is not an act of self-preservation by The State of Israel anymore. They're actively trying to make the living conditions of the Palestinian people harder, denying them recognition as a state and denying them territories claimed suddenly by Israel in 1967. Their end goal is to make the Palestinians move, or to exterminate them.
Though I honestly think that any semblance of American support would vanish if The State of Israel implemented a 'Final solution' to the 'Palestine problem'.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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The problem is that Britain is in such a state that it actually relies upon immigration now. During the election debates one of the MP's pointed out that 1/4th of our NHS are immigrants from other countries, she was replying to a member of UKIP in what she saw as being a racist statement by that member. However this is actually a tacit admission that we don't produce enough Doctors and Nurses from our education system in order to fulfil what we need in the NHS for it to function properly in the first place. Of course combine this with the fact that immigration is a two way street. It's not enough to just have a pro-immigration policy but immigrants are going to want to actually come to your country in the first place then it gets even messier. The reason why immigrants come to the UK is first most to get a better standard of living. However considering that both China and India are going to become the next economic super powers in perhaps the next 20 years then we could end up in a situation where we don't get immigrants wanting to come to the UK but they may have other options. Immigrants that we got from China and India in the past may stay within their respective countries if they become better off and also if any other big countries become more pro-immigration with their policies then immigrants may choose those countries as options instead meaning that the UK ends up in a really bad position.“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis
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Originally posted by seer View Postthere is no proportion in war. The goal of war is to win.
First of all there must be just cause. I agree that The State of Israel has a just cause, it wants to protect its citizens from terrorists attacks occurring from within the Gaza Strip and other places that borders the country. Secondly The State of Israel is a competent government to enact this, and I'm not disputing that it has the rights to do so.
Proportionality has to be considered when you're engaging in war, which is one of the principles of Just War. Otherwise there would be a presumption towards aggression and more violence. The evil committed in the war, must not vastly outstrip the evil it tries to prevent. Otherwise the war will be unjust. Israel's attacks on the Palestinian people fails this severely. They're specifically targeting civilian populations, which also calls into question whether they have the right intention. Is this really about putting an end to a threat, or is about punishing the Palestine people? The latter would be evil, and is not something we should have anything to do with.
Finally it must be the last resort. All other reasonable options must have been explored. Since its not unreasonable for the The State of Israel to pull out of the territories it took in 1967, and to give recognition as a state to Palestine (which it already has in the eyes of many countries, and hopefully soon the US as well), I don't think anyone can claim that this has been covered as well.
And those are just the considerations for when you're about to start a war, there's further principles for how war is to be conducted once its underway. Christians are not free to simply say that anything goes during war time.
Hence I think Christians ought to be suspicious, and distance themselves from Israel's attacks on Palestine.
Israel effectively ended the rocket threat on its southern border - for now. And the Israelis are not killing any one right now, and haven't been since that last incursion ended.
That is just not correct, again there could have been a two state solution back in Clinton's time, the frame work was there in the Camp David summit. I mean really, one of the requirements was the return of Gaza - the Jews gave it ALL back - and what did it get them
Unfortunately it seems like Israel is heading back towards that mentality.
Stop with the propagandaLast edited by Leonhard; 05-02-2015, 06:07 AM.
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