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Bishop of Manchester: Britain has a moral duty to accept refugees from its wars

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Prove it.
    They have very adroitly maneuvered their way slowly forward to produce nukes with minimal provocation of those who opposed it so far.

    In turn, of course, I hope you can prove that they will nuke Israel.

    And they are the only ones who should have them.
    Why?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      In turn, of course, I hope you can prove that they will nuke Israel.
      I take them at their word that they want to destroy Israel. Why shouldn't I? Why shouldn't the Israelis?


      Why?
      Because the Israelis never used nukes and never threatened to wipe one of their Arab neighbor states off the face of the earth. They are western in their sensibilities and a secular democracy.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        The act of acquiring a nuclear device is what starts an "arms race". That's why you said Iran would start an arms race by acquiring a nuclear device. That the technology wasn't available to these states or the incentives not to create a nuclear bomb were higher than the incentives to create a nuclear bomb is irrelevant.
        What? Saudi Arabia is already looking to get nukes, and not because they are worried about Israel.

        http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24823846



        Your geopolitical knowledge of the situation hasn't moved past "Those crazy Muslims want to burn the world to the ground." And, because of that, you don't have any actual solutions to the problem. "Invade and bomb 'em until they stop" isn't a sustainable plan and people who so glibly offer it as serious have no credibility to speak of others' culpability for Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria or anywhere else.
        Again Sam, why shouldn't the Jews take Iran's claims at face value? Because some knee jerk liberal name Sam thinks that the threats are merely rhetoric. Please...
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          What? Saudi Arabia is already looking to get nukes, and not because they are worried about Israel.

          http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24823846
          No, Saudi Arabia is competing with Iran to be the regional power and so wants what Iran wants. Iran wants a nuclear weapon because it's got this crazy idea that it might be attacked without provocation in the near future for whatever pretext is convenient.


          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Again Sam, why shouldn't the Jews take Iran's claims at face value? Because some knee jerk liberal name Sam thinks that the threats are merely rhetoric. Please...
          There's an oft-used term for exactly that: saber-rattling. Given that Iran's rhetoric doesn't match its actions in the past decade, that's exactly what this is. And even if it's not, you still have to deal with a nuclear Iran even if you launch successive air strikes. You won't be able to contain the civilian casualties and humanitarian disasters. And if you think the Middle East is "messed up" before the destabilization of Iran ...

          Your "best case" solution leads to exactly the same place as the "worst case" diplomatic solution: a nuclear-armed Iran ruled by hardliners with a bloody grudge against Israel and the USA. The only way your solution can be seen as palatable, therefore, is to outright pretend that trying to use military action to prevent Iran from nuclear capability really won't be that bad.

          And no one who complains about the air campaign in Libya or the invasion of Iraq has even the pretense of credibility using that argument.
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sam View Post
            No, Saudi Arabia is competing with Iran to be the regional power and so wants what Iran wants. Iran wants a nuclear weapon because it's got this crazy idea that it might be attacked without provocation in the near future for whatever pretext is convenient.
            Nonsense Sam, my point stands, Iran will start a nuclear arms race. And it won't end with Saudi Arabia, I doubt whether countries like Kuwait or Qatar will be far behind.


            There's an oft-used term for exactly that: saber-rattling. Given that Iran's rhetoric doesn't match its actions in the past decade, that's exactly what this is. And even if it's not, you still have to deal with a nuclear Iran even if you launch successive air strikes. You won't be able to contain the civilian casualties and humanitarian disasters. And if you think the Middle East is "messed up" before the destabilization of Iran ...

            Your "best case" solution leads to exactly the same place as the "worst case" diplomatic solution: a nuclear-armed Iran ruled by hardliners with a bloody grudge against Israel and the USA. The only way your solution can be seen as palatable, therefore, is to outright pretend that trying to use military action to prevent Iran from nuclear capability really won't be that bad.

            And no one who complains about the air campaign in Libya or the invasion of Iraq has even the pretense of credibility using that argument.
            Like I said Sam, there is no reason Israel should or will take Iran's threats as saber-rattling. They know better, even if you don't.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              When people we like get nuclear arms, that's fine. If other people we don't like get nuclear arms in response THEY are starting an arms race. Honestly, the logic twists are hard to follow.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                When people we like get nuclear arms, that's fine. If other people we don't like get nuclear arms in response THEY are starting an arms race. Honestly, the logic twists are hard to follow.
                Yes Homer, nukes are safer in the hands of western democracies than in the hands of totalitarian Jihadists. Don't you agree?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Nonsense Sam, my point stands, Iran will start a nuclear arms race. And it won't end with Saudi Arabia, I doubt whether countries like Kuwait or Qatar will be far behind.

                  Like I said Sam, there is no reason Israel should or will take Iran's threats as saber-rattling. They know better, even if you don't.
                  And Israel knows that Iran isn't saber-rattling because ... [insert substantiating evidence here].
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Oh, and in case anyone cares about the OP and is interested in actual data rather than emotionalism, check here.

                    The number of people seeking asylum in the UK peaked in the early 2000s with 84,130 applications (excluding dependants) in 2003. It has remained much lower since this point. Between September 2011 and September 2012, 20,838 people applied for asylum. 10,750 asylum applications in this period were refused (64 per cent of the total).

                    In 2012, there were about 193,510 refugees, 15,710 pending asylum cases and 205 people classed as stateless in the UK: 0.33 per cent of the population.
                    chart.jpg

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      And Israel knows that Iran isn't saber-rattling because ... [insert substantiating evidence here].
                      Sam, the Jewish people experienced a Holocaust - you don't think they may be a little more than worried when a group or country threatens to wipe them out? A country that will shortly have nukes? Are your serious Sam - really?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Sam, the Jewish people experienced a Holocaust - you don't think they may be a little more than worried when a group or country threatens to wipe them out? A country that will shortly have nukes? Are your serious Sam - really?
                        Goodwin's Law applied to pre-emptive acts of war. Nice.

                        So your rationale for a series of unprovoked attacks which will inevitably lead to tens of thousands of civilian deaths and hundreds of thousands of civilians displaced (at minimum) is because Iran might not be saber-rattling and all it's waited for all this time is a nuclear weapon, despite being able to do a fair amount of damage to just about every city in Israel with its already-existing conventional warheads.

                        That's a long walk, man.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Deeply mourning the forgotten OP, I post these for consideration

                          Lev 19:33 “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."
                          Ex 22:22 “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.
                          I would assert that regardless of how refugees come to be refugees, Biblical Christians have a moral duty to care for them.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                            Deeply mourning the forgotten OP, I post these for consideration

                            I would assert that regardless of how refugees come to be refugees, Biblical Christians have a moral duty to care for them.
                            When were Christians "strangers in the land of Egypt"? And I must have missed the part where Israel ever faced human waves of hostile invaders it couldn't support.
                            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              When were Christians "strangers in the land of Egypt"? And I must have missed the part where Israel ever faced human waves of hostile invaders it couldn't support.
                              So you like using the Old Testament when it suits your violent purposes but not so much when it counsels compassion for the dispossessed. Who's a cherry picker now?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                I take them at their word that they want to destroy Israel. Why shouldn't I? Why shouldn't the Israelis?
                                That's hardly proof, given that they've not taken any steps to destroy Israel.

                                Because the Israelis never used nukes and never threatened to wipe one of their Arab neighbor states off the face of the earth. They are western in their sensibilities and a secular democracy.
                                Didn't the US and the USSR together threaten to plunge the world into nuclear holocaust? Being 'Western' () didn't stop the US from heading on the verge of joint lunacy.



                                Because the Israelis never used nukes and never threatened to wipe one of their Arab neighbor states off the face of the earth. They are western in their sensibilities and a secular democracy.[/QUOTE]

                                Comment

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