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Obamacare very successful, but still a long way to go

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    No. That it only makes it "affordable" by forcing someone else to cover part of a person's tab. SOMEONE is paying for that subsidy. That's the inconvenient man behind the curtain that never gets mentioned on the left.
    It gets mentioned on the Left all the time! No one claims that this is a free lunch. You can even get whole-page breakdowns for easy reading. And a list of relevant taxes.

    We talk often about the cost of Obamacare, how it started out projected to cut the deficit and only went down in cost from there. To pretend that the Left isn't aware or mentions the cost of the ACA is just silly.

    If you have an ideological problem with social costs being spread out, fine. That ship has long since sailed but fine. But let's not imagine that these things are only popular because people aren't aware of the fact that progressive taxation means that more affluent citizens are helping pay for services to less affluent citizens.
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      It gets mentioned on the Left all the time! No one claims that this is a free lunch. You can even get whole-page breakdowns for easy reading. And a list of relevant taxes.

      We talk often about the cost of Obamacare, how it started out projected to cut the deficit and only went down in cost from there. To pretend that the Left isn't aware or mentions the cost of the ACA is just silly.

      If you have an ideological problem with social costs being spread out, fine. That ship has long since sailed but fine. But let's not imagine that these things are only popular because people aren't aware of the fact that progressive taxation means that more affluent citizens are helping pay for services to less affluent citizens.
      Do I need to link you to the propaganda commercials? There are mentions of subsidies, but never an explanation of who pays for those subsidies.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      - Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Do I need to link you to the propaganda commercials? There are mentions of subsidies, but never an explanation of who pays for those subsidies.
        Do you base all of your opinions of the Left on "propaganda commercials"? Why not on CBPP analyses or actual discussions regarding the ACA? Should folks on the Left base their opinion of the Right solely on the death panel nonsense?
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Sam View Post
          Do you base all of your opinions of the Left on "propaganda commercials"? Why not on CBPP analyses or actual discussions regarding the ACA? Should folks on the Left base their opinion of the Right solely on the death panel nonsense?
          As I said, I am not talking about people interested in debate. I am talking about propaganda, which is what is being marketed to the masses. Heck, John Stewart went out on the street of NYC to ask if people preferred Obamacare or the Affordable Health Care Act, to which most respondents thought they were different things. The court of public opinion is all that matters in elections. People are happy with their rate because it is subsidized. They don't care where it comes from, just that it is given to them. It's people like us that can see it a bit better with more educated eyes that have to say "when is enough really enough?" We just disagree on what that line is. The "Affordable" health Care Act only makes marketplace healthcare plans affordable for 9 out of 10 individuals because it forces others to pay for most of it.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            As I said, I am not talking about people interested in debate. I am talking about propaganda, which is what is being marketed to the masses. Heck, John Stewart went out on the street of NYC to ask if people preferred Obamacare or the Affordable Health Care Act, to which most respondents thought they were different things. The court of public opinion is all that matters in elections. People are happy with their rate because it is subsidized. They don't care where it comes from, just that it is given to them. It's people like us that can see it a bit better with more educated eyes that have to say "when is enough really enough?" We just disagree on what that line is.
            If you're only talking about propaganda, you might want to get the plank of the Conservative eye before criticizing the mote in the Liberals'. Anti-Obamacare propaganda has been consistent and consistently misleading since before the law was signed.

            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            The "Affordable" health Care Act only makes marketplace healthcare plans affordable for 9 out of 10 individuals because it forces others to pay for most of it.
            What's your alternative that makes healthcare more affordable than the ACA while maintain at least the patient protection provisions that remain highly popular? I don't think many people would disagree that the ACA isn't a panacea for health care coverage. But I haven't heard a proposition from the right of the ACA that would come anywhere close to providing the same coverage at the same or lesser cost.
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Sam View Post
              If you're only talking about propaganda, you might want to get the plank of the Conservative eye before criticizing the mote in the Liberals'. Anti-Obamacare propaganda has been consistent and consistently misleading since before the law was signed.
              Oh, I agree. But some was actually pretty accurate too.


              What's your alternative that makes healthcare more affordable than the ACA while maintain at least the patient protection provisions that remain highly popular? I don't think many people would disagree that the ACA isn't a panacea for health care coverage. But I haven't heard a proposition from the right of the ACA that would come anywhere close to providing the same coverage at the same or lesser cost.
              Unfortunately, I don't have the answers you are seeking. The healthcare system is broken, and badly so. Doctors charge exorbitant fees, as do hospitals, pharmacies, DMG makers, and insurance companies. But forcing more people into the system isn't helping the overarching problem of out of control costs. It's only making wait times longer, disincentivizing doctors to work with the government funded plans, etc. It's a huge mess, and not easily solved.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Oh, I agree. But some was actually pretty accurate too.

                Unfortunately, I don't have the answers you are seeking. The healthcare system is broken, and badly so. Doctors charge exorbitant fees, as do hospitals, pharmacies, DMG makers, and insurance companies. But forcing more people into the system isn't helping the overarching problem of out of control costs. It's only making wait times longer, disincentivizing doctors to work with the government funded plans, etc. It's a huge mess, and not easily solved.
                From most all early indications, the ACA isn't making the system worse. Hospitals are becoming more efficient and readmitting patients less frequently, due to benefits and penalties in the ACA. Medicaid and Medicare cut down on doctors charging exorbitant fees so the expansion of Medicaid is a step forward in that direction, too. But we can't complain about doctors charging exorbitant fees and the ACA disincentivizing doctors to work with government plans that cap those fees. Either the government is right to do so or the fees aren't really exorbitant.

                Health care is a huge mess, no question. The challenge isn't "fixing" health care, in the sense of making it ideal. It's about making it progressively better — and the ACA, despite the outrage and disbelief and opposition, has made health care better by virtually all the metrics we use to measure it. There will have to be "next steps", certainly, but they'll have to be more progressive than the ACA, not less.
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  From most all early indications, the ACA isn't making the system worse.
                  My sister works for Anthem BC/BS and she said exactly the opposite. It has been a nightmare for the insurance companies according to her, which has caused increased administrative costs to be passed on to the customers.

                  Hospitals are becoming more efficient and readmitting patients less frequently, due to benefits and penalties in the ACA. Medicaid and Medicare cut down on doctors charging exorbitant fees so the expansion of Medicaid is a step forward in that direction, too. But we can't complain about doctors charging exorbitant fees and the ACA disincentivizing doctors to work with government plans that cap those fees. Either the government is right to do so or the fees aren't really exorbitant.
                  But several doctors are rejecting Medicaid patients now due to the AHCA, and there are other insurance carriers that are not bound by the cuts.


                  Health care is a huge mess, no question. The challenge isn't "fixing" health care, in the sense of making it ideal. It's about making it progressively better — and the ACA, despite the outrage and disbelief and opposition, has made health care better by virtually all the metrics we use to measure it. There will have to be "next steps", certainly, but they'll have to be more progressive than the ACA, not less.
                  The more "progressive" it becomes, the more socialized it becomes. Socializing medicine is not the answer.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    My sister works for Anthem BC/BS and she said exactly the opposite. It has been a nightmare for the insurance companies according to her, which has caused increased administrative costs to be passed on to the customers.
                    Anthem itself supported the passage for the ACA, if I remember correctly, and continues to support it.

                    I've got medical professionals in my family; they're seeing improving care since the ACA's passage. I don't doubt there will be higher administrative costs but the net effect has been slower health care cost inflation than before the ACA. So, on balance, the law is working as planned.


                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    But several doctors are rejecting Medicaid patients now due to the AHCA, and there are other insurance carriers that are not bound by the cuts.
                    Gotta pick one: either the doctors are over-charging or Medicaid is under-paying. If the former, we can't complain when the only consumer large enough to bend the curve puts its foot down on how much it will pay for a given procedure. If the latter, we still have to determine how much these doctors are overcharging and refuse to pay them more than what the procedure should cost.


                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    The more "progressive" it becomes, the more socialized it becomes. Socializing medicine is not the answer.
                    That's an opinion that is not borne out by comparing health care systems throughout the developed world. It's an ideological platform at odds with reality.
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      No. That it only makes it "affordable" by forcing someone else to cover part of a person's tab. SOMEONE is paying for that subsidy. That's the inconvenient man behind the curtain that never gets mentioned on the left.
                      Medicaid literally pays lower rates to doctors, hospitals etc.

                      You yourself complained:
                      Doctors charge exorbitant fees, as do hospitals, pharmacies, DMG makers, and insurance companies.
                      The medicare and medicaid programs literally pay reduced fees. The government calculates what the actual costs of the care are, not the inflated costs with huge profits built-in that doctors love to charge, and the government pays the actual costs. That achieves exactly what you said you wanted to see happen: Lowers the exorbitant fees being paid to doctors, hospitals etc.

                      Socializing medicine is not the answer.
                      Let's see your graph again:

                      Socializing medicine obviously is the answer. It clearly works. Really really well.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        The OP's graph:

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]5841[/ATTACH]

                        Shows the net effect of insurance coverage: someone losing insurance because of the ACA and then picking it up again under the ACA would not show up on this graph. Contrary to the claims of many (including yourself at the time), the ACA did not result in more people losing their coverage than gaining coverage. Far, far from it, by the graph.

                        Surveys of health care satisfaction of people using the exchanges have shown a high level of satisfaction, even among Republicans:

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]5842[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]5843[/ATTACH]
                        "The OP's graph..."

                        At the moment, I have neither the time nor the inclination to dig through the OP's multiple strawmen, logical fallacies, and elephant hurls.

                        "Contrary to the claims of many (including yourself at the time), the ACA did not result in more people losing their coverage than gaining coverage."

                        Yes, because at the time, we were looking at 5-million actual new sign-ups at best (once you drilled down through the White House's grossly exaggerated 11-million figure) versus tens of millions who had lost their insurance at the time, so at the time, those claims were 100% correct. Even if you look at the graph, there was a steady increase in uninsured following the rollout of Obamacare before the numbers started going down.

                        As for the number of uninsured decreasing, so what? It's mandatory, and people don't want the IRS coming after them if they don't sign up. Can you really boast about "success" when people have a figurative gun to their heads?

                        And satisfaction? What's the baseline? For someone who had no insurance and is getting a generous government stipend, they would be thrilled with even substandard care. Furthermore, how many of those people actually took advantage of their insurance beyond, say, a routine examine or a simple ER visit? That's the problem with simplistic charts and graphs: they don't tell the whole story.

                        Meanwhile, Obamacare has had a devastating impact on seniors:

                        Source: The Heritage Foundation

                        - The law cuts an estimated $716 billion from Medicare over ten years. However, these "savings" are not set aside to preserve Medicare's future, instead they are used to fund new spending created by the law.

                        - Nearly one-third of all seniors rely on Medicare Advantage, the private health care option in Medicare. Despite the program's growing enrollment and beneficiary satisfaction, Obamacare makes deep cuts to the program that jeopardize its viability in coming years.

                        - In addition to payment cuts, Obamacare imposes new taxes on drug companies and medical device makers, and new regulations that will make health care more costly for seniors.

                        http://www.heritage.org/research/pro...t-of-obamacare

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        Obamacare is continuing to have a negative impact on employment:

                        Source: sovereignman.com

                        21.6% of firms surveyed said that they were going to employ fewer workers as a result of the Affordable Care Act.

                        And another 20.2% said they were shifting from full-time employees to a part-time workforce as a result of the law.

                        Only 2.3% said there was a beneficial impact to employment as a result of the Act, and a whopping 81.4% of businesses said that their per-employee costs were increasing as a result of the Act.

                        Moreover, 36.4% of businesses plan on increasing the prices they charge their customers as a result of the Act, essentially passing on the costs of the legislation to consumers.

                        http://www.sovereignman.com/trends/f...economy-15116/

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        Source: BloombergView

                        In February 2014, the Congressional Budget Office released a helpful estimate quantifying the supply-side employment impact of Obamacare. The report concluded that by 2024, the equivalent of 2.5 million full-time workers would leave the labor force because of Obamacare. Put another way, the law creates strong incentives for millions of people to just stop working -- even though the Obama administration tried to spin this outcome as a good thing since it would allow people to “pursue their dreams.”

                        http://www.bloombergview.com/article...ening-disaster

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        And doctors who are willing to take a loss seeing a government insured patient are becoming increasingly rare:

                        Source: CNBC

                        Hey, are you one of the 9.7 million Americans who have been put onto the Medicaid rolls since 2013 mostly as a result of the Affordable Care Act?

                        Congratulations! But that and $2.75 will get you one ride on the New York City subway.

                        That's because finding a doctor who accepts Medicaid payments – never all that easy to do even before 2013 – is getting harder than ever thanks to a steep drop in reimbursement rates for doctors who treat patients on Medicaid.

                        When I say "steep," I mean it. We're talking an average of 43 percent nationwide and almost 60 percent in California. Incidentally, California has added 2.7 million more people to Medicaid since 2013.

                        The result is simple: more and more doctors are simply not accepting Medicaid patients and/or dropping the ones they already have.

                        And before you call those doctors greedy or evil, consider the alternative: Most private-practice doctors literally care for Medicaid patients at a personal financial loss. Do that too much and you start not being able to practice at all, and that will hurt everyone.

                        http://www.cnbc.com/id/102330644

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        As for cost, even CNN has to concede that it's not that great of a deal: "Obamacare enrollees have to shell out a lot more to see the doctor or get medications than their peers with job-based health insurance. [...] High deductibles have been a sore point with some Obamacare enrollees. They have complained that they have to shell out thousands of dollars, on top of their monthly premium, before their insurance kicks in."

                        In a recent hearing, Representative Phil Roe summarized Obamacare like this: "When it’s all said and done – after all the broken promises, fewer jobs, lost wages, website glitches, and cancelled health care plans – 35 million individuals will still be without health insurance. The American people can no longer afford this costly mistake."
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          "The OP's graph..."

                          At the moment, I have neither the time nor the inclination to dig through the OP's multiple strawmen, logical fallacies, and elephant hurls.

                          "Contrary to the claims of many (including yourself at the time), the ACA did not result in more people losing their coverage than gaining coverage."

                          Yes, because at the time, we were looking at 5-million actual new sign-ups at best (once you drilled down through the White House's grossly exaggerated 11-million figure) versus tens of millions who had lost their insurance at the time, so at the time, those claims were 100% correct. Even if you look at the graph, there was a steady increase in uninsured following the rollout of Obamacare before the numbers started going down.

                          As for the number of uninsured decreasing, so what? It's mandatory, and people don't want the IRS coming after them if they don't sign up. Can you really boast about "success" when people have a figurative gun to their heads?
                          Oh, no. What you had claimed was that the number of newly uninsured was going to top the number of newly insured, that the net uninsured percentage was going to go higher. You were far from alone in this, as that was the whole meme on the Right-wing, from Limbaugh to Krauthammer to even nominally sensible folk like Avik Roy. The claim was that Obamacare would continue to fail spectacularly (though, in reality, it never was failing) and would result in more people losing their coverage than gaining it. There was no "At this thin slice of history, which we knowingly cherry pick for our current argument" — that's a little too transparent even for the anything-Obama-hating nutjobs.


                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          And satisfaction? What's the baseline? For someone who had no insurance and is getting a generous government stipend, they would be thrilled with even substandard care. Furthermore, how many of those people actually took advantage of their insurance beyond, say, a routine examine or a simple ER visit? That's the problem with simplistic charts and graphs: they don't tell the whole story.
                          If you managed to find the time or inclination to even glance at the graphs, you'd see the comparison was between people with newly-purchased marketplace coverage and "All people with insurance." Folks on the marketplace were more satisfied with the costs of their coverage than the average and were about equally satisfied with the care.


                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Meanwhile, Obamacare has had a devastating impact on seniors:

                          Source: The Heritage Foundation

                          - The law cuts an estimated $716 billion from Medicare over ten years. However, these "savings" are not set aside to preserve Medicare's future, instead they are used to fund new spending created by the law.

                          - Nearly one-third of all seniors rely on Medicare Advantage, the private health care option in Medicare. Despite the program's growing enrollment and beneficiary satisfaction, Obamacare makes deep cuts to the program that jeopardize its viability in coming years.

                          - In addition to payment cuts, Obamacare imposes new taxes on drug companies and medical device makers, and new regulations that will make health care more costly for seniors.

                          http://www.heritage.org/research/pro...t-of-obamacare

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Obamacare is continuing to have a negative impact on employment:

                          Source: sovereignman.com

                          21.6% of firms surveyed said that they were going to employ fewer workers as a result of the Affordable Care Act.

                          And another 20.2% said they were shifting from full-time employees to a part-time workforce as a result of the law.

                          Only 2.3% said there was a beneficial impact to employment as a result of the Act, and a whopping 81.4% of businesses said that their per-employee costs were increasing as a result of the Act.

                          Moreover, 36.4% of businesses plan on increasing the prices they charge their customers as a result of the Act, essentially passing on the costs of the legislation to consumers.

                          http://www.sovereignman.com/trends/f...economy-15116/

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Source: BloombergView

                          In February 2014, the Congressional Budget Office released a helpful estimate quantifying the supply-side employment impact of Obamacare. The report concluded that by 2024, the equivalent of 2.5 million full-time workers would leave the labor force because of Obamacare. Put another way, the law creates strong incentives for millions of people to just stop working -- even though the Obama administration tried to spin this outcome as a good thing since it would allow people to “pursue their dreams.”

                          http://www.bloombergview.com/article...ening-disaster

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          And doctors who are willing to take a loss seeing a government insured patient are becoming increasingly rare:

                          Source: CNBC

                          Hey, are you one of the 9.7 million Americans who have been put onto the Medicaid rolls since 2013 mostly as a result of the Affordable Care Act?

                          Congratulations! But that and $2.75 will get you one ride on the New York City subway.

                          That's because finding a doctor who accepts Medicaid payments – never all that easy to do even before 2013 – is getting harder than ever thanks to a steep drop in reimbursement rates for doctors who treat patients on Medicaid.

                          When I say "steep," I mean it. We're talking an average of 43 percent nationwide and almost 60 percent in California. Incidentally, California has added 2.7 million more people to Medicaid since 2013.

                          The result is simple: more and more doctors are simply not accepting Medicaid patients and/or dropping the ones they already have.

                          And before you call those doctors greedy or evil, consider the alternative: Most private-practice doctors literally care for Medicaid patients at a personal financial loss. Do that too much and you start not being able to practice at all, and that will hurt everyone.

                          http://www.cnbc.com/id/102330644

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          As for cost, even CNN has to concede that it's not that great of a deal: "Obamacare enrollees have to shell out a lot more to see the doctor or get medications than their peers with job-based health insurance. [...] High deductibles have been a sore point with some Obamacare enrollees. They have complained that they have to shell out thousands of dollars, on top of their monthly premium, before their insurance kicks in."

                          In a recent hearing, Representative Phil Roe summarized Obamacare like this: "When it’s all said and done – after all the broken promises, fewer jobs, lost wages, website glitches, and cancelled health care plans – 35 million individuals will still be without health insurance. The American people can no longer afford this costly mistake."
                          You had mentioned elephant-hurling early on in your post, yes?
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            From most all early indications, the ACA isn't making the system worse.
                            That is a big load of horse hockey. At every health care facility that I interned at, I have never met a healthcare professional that was looking forward to the implementation of Obamacare or even saying something positive about the program. I saw one of two reactions:
                            a) face-reddening anger
                            or
                            b) nail biting fear

                            In New York.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Knowing Thomas View Post
                              That is a big load of horse hockey. At every health care facility that I interned at, I have never met a healthcare professional that was looking forward to the implementation of Obamacare or even saying something positive about the program. I saw one of two reactions:
                              a) face-reddening anger
                              or
                              b) nail biting fear

                              In New York.
                              Well, I spend a lot of time around healthcare professionals, too, and have spent a good bit of time talking about Obamacare (obviously an area of interest) and while some of them were upset about it, they generally were upset for reasons that were, at best, based on misinformation.

                              But let's use actual metrics of performance, since anecdotal evidence isn't going to get us very far at all.
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Knowing Thomas View Post
                                That is a big load of horse hockey. At every health care facility that I interned at, I have never met a healthcare professional that was looking forward to the implementation of Obamacare or even saying something positive about the program. I saw one of two reactions:
                                a) face-reddening anger
                                or
                                b) nail biting fear

                                In New York.
                                A lot of people were very worried due to extensive fear-mongering that the Republicans engaged in. That fear-mongering has unsurprisingly turned out to have no basis in reality. A public apology from them would seem reasonable.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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