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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Are these "rare" acts of terrorism universally and strongly condemned by the leaders of Islam?
    No, but there are a few in the West, and in groups like CAIR that do so under the pretense of taqiyah.

    When you see a "Christian" commit an act of violence in the name of God, do you ever see whole communities of Christians dancing in the street in approval?
    Exactly! You don't. fm93 has likely bought into the "Religion of Peace" propaganda. Islamic teaching is by it's very nature antichrist. Fortunately not all Muslims take Islamic teaching seriously.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
      No, but there are a few in the West, and in groups like CAIR that do so under the pretense of taqiyah.
      Yes, like we publicly condemn Israel for attacking a nuclear reactor in Iran, when we most likely provided the intelligence and support.

      Exactly! You don't. fm93 has likely bought into the "Religion of Peace" propaganda. Islamic teaching is by it's very nature antichrist. Fortunately not all Muslims take Islamic teaching seriously.
      He needs to learn the difference between "peace" and "submission".
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by fm93 View Post
        Well, seeing as the vast majority of Muslim-Christian interactions don't involve violence, no--it's clearly not inherent to the belief system. The better explanation is that they really did just happen to run into a group of radical Muslims.

        You keep trying to insist that the rare examples of Muslims committing terrorism is an indictment of the entire religion, while dismissing the examples of police brutality as isolated incidents, as "just a few bad apples" instead of "the mindset of those policemen is inherent to the justice system." Can't have it both ways.
        FM, who is causing the vast majority of atrocities and terrorism in the world today? Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by fm93 View Post
          Well, seeing as the vast majority of Muslim-Christian interactions don't involve violence, no--it's clearly not inherent to the belief system.
          From the pattern of church attacks and burnings in Indonesia, the interactions don't involve violence if the muslim are the minority in that area.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            FM, who is causing the vast majority of atrocities and terrorism in the world today? Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists?
            You forgot liberals.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              I've lived around Muslims my whole life and they tend to be more polite and generous than the average person in my experience, especially immigrants. These are San Francisco Bay Area Muslims of course...
              "Some people feel guilty about their anxieties and regard them as a defect of faith but they are afflictions, not sins. Like all afflictions, they are, if we can so take them, our share in the passion of Christ." - That Guy Everyone Quotes

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              • #22
                Originally posted by hamster View Post
                I've lived around Muslims my whole life and they tend to be more polite and generous than the average person in my experience, especially immigrants. These are San Francisco Bay Area Muslims of course...
                My life was saved by a Muslim neurologist. There are several things that can come into play here, how devoted the Muslim is, whether or not they accept the Sahih ahadith as authoritative, and taqiya.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  Considering that most Muslims are not placed in a literal lifeboat situation this objection amounts to nothing.
                  Given the number of refugees and immigrants arriving to their destinations by sea, it is highly unlikely one could maintain the OP's generalization even given that subset.
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    I'm afraid that Muslim violence, unlike Christian violence (and to be sure, both sides have their fair share of violent people), can be justified directly from their religious beliefs and from the actions of their most revered leader - Mohammed.

                    When the example behavior 'comes from the top' so to speak, it can't help but be the more likely outcome.

                    To be a violent Christian requires one completely and totally ignore ALL Christ taught on the subject. To do any less than love one's enemies and reach out to the suffering and come to their aid, regardless of ANYTHING they have done, is to be LESS than Christ taught us to be.

                    On the contrary, the concept of forgiving one's enemies, of loving them, is foreign to Muslim teaching. I have seen direct quotes from local Muslim clerics to that effect. They think Christians are crazy to teach that, to require that.

                    While unfortunately one can find exceptions to every rule, what we see here represented would I think tend to have been far less likely had the religious population of the boat been reversed.


                    Jim
                    Christ's pacifism, unfortunately, has not historically stood in the way of Christian violence.

                    Given that Jesus is understood in Islam as a prophet of God, as Mohammed; while Mohammed is understood as the greater prophet, their views are not considered to be contradictory. In the practical sense, I imagine that, in general, Muslims do the same thing as Christians here: they emphasize the contrasting desire for violence or peace as culture and environment dictate.

                    So one can have a great theological debate on the subject but, as a practical matter, it's just not accurate or fair to suggest that Islam promotes violence more than Christianity. The history just isn't there to support that contention.
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      My life was saved by a Muslim neurologist. There are several things that can come into play here, how devoted the Muslim is, whether or not they accept the Sahih ahadith as authoritative, and taqiya.
                      Yes, my Dentist, for years, was a Muslim. My GP was Muslim, and I recently had outpatient surgery by a Muslim recently from Turkey. I liked them all, and they were seeming nice folks, but you can not always know a man's heart.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Yes, my Dentist, for years, was a Muslim. My GP was Muslim, and I recently had outpatient surgery by a Muslim recently from Turkey. I liked them all, and they were seeming nice folks, but you can not always know a man's heart.
                        ... wow.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          I'm afraid that Muslim violence, unlike Christian violence (and to be sure, both sides have their fair share of violent people), can be justified directly from their religious beliefs and from the actions of their most revered leader - Mohammed.
                          The Old Testament has more than a few instances in which God directly commands his people to kill individual sinners or to exterminate entire groups of people. In the New Testament, Jesus speaks of a king (who's believed to metaphorically represent himself) who says of certain unbelievers "Kill them before me." Obviously, there are reasons that Christians don't act upon those (such as understanding the context). And likewise, considering that the vast majority of Muslims do not engage in violence, there are reasons that Muslims don't act upon certain passages that seem to advocate or condone violence.

                          To be a violent Christian requires one completely and totally ignore ALL Christ taught on the subject. To do any less than love one's enemies and reach out to the suffering and come to their aid, regardless of ANYTHING they have done, is to be LESS than Christ taught us to be.
                          That didn't stop the Ku Klux Klan, who saw themselves as upholding Christian morality, from terrorizing people for literally centuries.


                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Are these "rare" acts of terrorism universally and strongly condemned by the leaders of Islam?
                          I'm not sure what your criteria for being a leader of Islam includes, but I do know that yes, those acts of terrorism are widely and strongly condemned by many Muslims worldwide.

                          When you see a "Christian" commit an act of violence in the name of God, do you ever see whole communities of Christians dancing in the street in approval?
                          It's not violence per se, but in a similar spirit, when a Christian says/does something incredibly insulting and demeaning towards gay people, I do see whole communities of Christians celebrating in approval. When a Christian humanitarian aid organization like World Vision decides to hire gay Christians, I do see whole communities of Christians protesting by abandoning the needy children whom they'd previously agreed to sponsor.


                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          FM, who is causing the vast majority of atrocities and terrorism in the world today? Hindus, Jews, Christians, Buddhists?
                          Given that Christians by far constitute the largest religious group in the world, I'd say the majority of atrocities and terrorism are actually caused by Christians. This was especially true in the past, at least, even though the Bible has been around for longer than that.
                          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                            I'm not sure what your criteria for being a leader of Islam includes,
                            You have GOT to be kidding!

                            but I do know that yes, those acts of terrorism are widely and strongly condemned by many Muslims worldwide.
                            You know this, how? Because you want to believe it? Can you substantiate this with actual fact? And my actual question was ....
                            "Are these "rare" acts of terrorism universally and strongly condemned by the leaders of Islam?"

                            You kinda Bill Clintoned all around that.

                            It's not violence per se, but in a similar spirit, when a Christian says/does something incredibly insulting and demeaning towards gay people,
                            So, insulting a gay person, in your mind, is on a par with sawing somebody's head off, or strapping explosives to yourself and killing innocent people....

                            I do see whole communities of Christians celebrating in approval.
                            Show me where whole communities of Christians are celebrating the insulting and demeaning of gay people.

                            When a Christian humanitarian aid organization like World Vision decides to hire gay Christians, I do see whole communities of Christians protesting by abandoning the needy children whom they'd previously agreed to sponsor.
                            "whole communities"?

                            Given that Christians by far constitute the largest religious group in the world, I'd say the majority of atrocities and terrorism are actually caused by Christians.
                            You are SO FAR out of touch with reality it's not even funny. PLEASE demonstrate where Christians are committing these atrocities in the name of Christ to any degree even CLOSE to what militant Islam does in the name of Muhammud.

                            This was especially true in the past, at least, even though the Bible has been around for longer than that.
                            So, let's stick with current events --- please provide answers the the challenges I have posed for you.
                            Last edited by Cow Poke; 04-17-2015, 02:18 PM.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              Christ's pacifism, unfortunately, has not historically stood in the way of Christian violence.

                              Given that Jesus is understood in Islam as a prophet of God, as Mohammed; while Mohammed is understood as the greater prophet, their views are not considered to be contradictory. In the practical sense, I imagine that, in general, Muslims do the same thing as Christians here: they emphasize the contrasting desire for violence or peace as culture and environment dictate.

                              So one can have a great theological debate on the subject but, as a practical matter, it's just not accurate or fair to suggest that Islam promotes violence more than Christianity. The history just isn't there to support that contention.
                              My point is that Christ's teaching does not allow for ANY violence of any kind as a response to personal evil, or as a means of preventing ideas contrary to His teachings. None. Nothing.

                              Islam, Mohammed OTOH requires violent responses for certain offences against him or the religion.

                              While some might try to make the argument that somehow this distinction has no practical statistical impact on the overall behavior of each religion's followers, I would tend to think that simply is not true. There are far, far too many that are able to convincingly make the case that to follow Islam, one must kill and destroy that which is not Islam, and far, far too many that have been similarly convinced.

                              To recap: Some people can be convinced to do violence regardless. Some people simply ignore Christ's teachings. But it is impossible to derive any sort of logically consistent argument from Christ's teachings that it makes sense to kill people in His name. I believe that distinction is significant. And further, I believe it is absurd to say the current violence does not reflect on Islam itself when it IS possible derive a logically consistent argument for destroying and killing from Islamic teachings.

                              I raise these issues not to encourage a hateful or fearful response to Islam. But as I see it, this is simply is the reality of the situation. And it is an uncomfortable reality for those that would prefer to be able to equate the fundamental impact of the Christian and Islamic faiths.

                              Jim
                              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-17-2015, 02:56 PM.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                Given the number of refugees and immigrants arriving to their destinations by sea, it is highly unlikely one could maintain the OP's generalization even given that subset.
                                It depends. I read that in this case more Christians were not pushed off because they physically resisted, so it is not the case that murderous intentions arising from a lifeboat situation can always be carried out.

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