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  • #31
    Originally posted by fm93 View Post
    The Old Testament has more than a few instances in which God directly commands his people to kill individual sinners or to exterminate entire groups of people. In the New Testament, Jesus speaks of a king (who's believed to metaphorically represent himself) who says of certain unbelievers "Kill them before me." Obviously, there are reasons that Christians don't act upon those (such as understanding the context). And likewise, considering that the vast majority of Muslims do not engage in violence, there are reasons that Muslims don't act upon certain passages that seem to advocate or condone violence.
    The Old Testament is not what Christians follow or derive their faith from. We no longer follow 'An eye for an eye". The law has been fulfilled in Christ, and now we walk in Grace and Forgiveness. Those that derive their behavior from the OT are still living under the law and not in Christ.

    That didn't stop the Ku Klux Klan, who saw themselves as upholding Christian morality, from terrorizing people for literally centuries.
    You are quite right. That is is possible to DISTORT the teachings of a religion that offers NO POSSIBIITY of violent actions into some sort of misguided reversal of the same should be telling you why a religion that DOES allow for that will produce such things in even larger quantities, and why such a religion can of itself be a source of violence. People are fundamentally evil and in need of redemption. They will distort even that which is good and make it evil. This is why we need Christ in the first place.


    I'm not sure what your criteria for being a leader of Islam includes, but I do know that yes, those acts of terrorism are widely and strongly condemned by many Muslims worldwide.
    Don't be ridiculous. A leader in Islam is simply that - a leader in Islam. And loving ones enemies is not a fundamental tenet of Islam, rather the opposite. Vengence has quite the central stage when it comes to what should be the response to evil. And that feeds the fundamental ills that plague us all. Which is the natural response - the pay back evil for evil, or to pay back evil with love and compassion? But in a world full of evil, how can the endless cycle of evil ever be stopped if someone does not decide to refuse to seek an equal response to an evil committed? You do not understand why things are the way they are, and why what Christ taught and what He offers is so necessary and distinct from Islam. Revenge begets only more revenge. Evil begets only more evil. Unless someone, somewhere chooses a different path.

    It's not violence per se, but in a similar spirit, when a Christian says/does something incredibly insulting and demeaning towards gay people, I do see whole communities of Christians celebrating in approval. When a Christian humanitarian aid organization like World Vision decides to hire gay Christians, I do see whole communities of Christians protesting by abandoning the needy children whom they'd previously agreed to sponsor.
    I think we are talking about the potential for the justification of evil through the teachings of a given religion. What you are missing is that no matter what the religion or philosophy, evil people will always be available and willing to do evil, even to distort those good elements of that religion or philosophy into a justification for evil. How much more so when that philosophy or religion already ALLOWS for and/or promotes those same elements of evil under certain circumstances?

    Given that Christians by far constitute the largest religious group in the world, I'd say the majority of atrocities and terrorism are actually caused by Christians. This was especially true in the past, at least, even though the Bible has been around for longer than that.

    And that is just pure ignorance paving the way for yet more ignorance.


    Jim
    Don’t waste your time with explanations, people only hear what they want to hear.
    --- Paulo Coelho

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    • #32
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      My point is that Christ's teaching does not allow for ANY violence of any kind as a response to personal evil, or as a means of preventing ideas contrary to His teachings. None. Nothing.

      Islam, Mohammed OTOH requires violent responses for certain offences against him or the religion.

      While some might try to make the argument that somehow this distinction has no practical statistical impact on the overall behavior of each religion's followers, I would tend to think that simply is not true. There are far, far too many that are able to convincingly make the case that to follow Islam, one must kill and destroy that which is not Islam, and far, far too many that have been similarly convinced.

      To recap: Some people can be convinced to do violence regardless. Some people simply ignore Christ's teachings. But it is impossible to derive any sort of logically consistent argument from Christ's teachings that it makes sense to kill people in His name. I believe that distinction is significant. And further, I believe it is absurd to say the current violence does not reflect on Islam itself when it IS possible derive a logically consistent argument for destroying and killing from Islamic teachings.

      I raise these issues not to encourage a hateful or fearful response to Islam. But as I see it, this is simply is the reality of the situation. And it is an uncomfortable reality for those that would prefer to be able to equate the fundamental impact of the Christian and Islamic faiths.

      Jim
      But this is a theological argument that does not bear witness to historical trends or even current events. Are Christians, on the whole, particularly less violent than Muslims when one accounts for regional politics? I'd think we would be hard pressed to say that was the case. That most of the Christian West's violence is institutionalized does not, I think, give us room to discount it. How many military chaplains are preaching Christ's radical nonviolence?

      I certainly agree that Christ, as opposed to Mohammed, preached a radical pacifism. That's a valid theological point. But we err (and err greatly, I believe) when we look at the world solely through that lens, discounting the current and historical violence done (and blessed!) by Christians today.

      Because when we add that perspective, we don't get very bloody far at all, in the practical sense, declaring Christianity to be a religion of peace or Islam somehow exuberantly violent.
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        How many military chaplains are preaching Christ's radical nonviolence?
        I'm hoping none of them are preaching such a lie.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          It depends. I read that in this case more Christians were not pushed off because they physically resisted, so it is not the case that murderous intentions arising from a lifeboat situation can always be carried out.
          This would be going down the road that seer just took, assuming without evidence a malicious intent that was, for whatever reason, simply not acted upon.
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Manwë Súlimo View Post
            Who wants to break the news to them that they sailed into the Vatican?
            Like Pope Gaycis will do anything other than kiss their feet and say "who am I to judge?"
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              You have GOT to be kidding!
              Please clarify. Are you asking for imams and sheikhs? Leaders of some Muslim-based community group or college? Political leaders of Islamic countries?

              I ask you to clarify because although I don't follow international politics closely enough to know if the latter group has specifically released any condemnation, I do know that many Muslims in the former two groups have certainly done so. There's the Letter to Baghdati, for instance, in which over 120 Muslim clerics and scholars penned a letter to ISIS members condemning the terrorists and arguing that the Quran forbade those acts. (Scroll down to page 18 for the list of signatories.)

              You know this, how? Because you want to believe it? Can you substantiate this with actual fact?
              Yes, I can substantiate it with actual fact, although your attempt at slandering my integrity didn't go unnoticed. Last September some Muslims started a social media campaign called #NotInMyName, in which they called on fellow Muslims to actively condemn ISIS and make it clear that those terrorists don't represent Islam. The hashtag was used tens of thousands of times from Muslims the world over. (Apparently some people in South Africa have recently used the hashtag to comment on some recent events, however, so the latest results aren't Islam-related) Additionally, the aforementioned Letter to Baghdati has been shared over 100,000 times on Facebook. Granted, there are over a billion Muslims in the world, so 100,000 is but a small fraction of the world's Muslims, but it remains the case that there are many, many Muslims who absolutely condemn terrorist attacks.

              So, insulting a gay person, in your mind, is on a par with sawing somebody's head off, or strapping explosives to yourself and killing innocent people....
              No, but it does mean that people should be wary of getting on a religious high horse regarding Islam--the fact that your own religion's members don't frequently commit terrorism doesn't vindicate it much if members do bad things in the name of the religion in other areas.

              Show me where whole communities of Christians are celebrating the insulting and demeaning of gay people.
              Look at all the people celebrating Indiana's "religious freedom" bill and standing by pizza makers who refuse to do something as simple and polite as making a few pizzas that gay people wish to consume at weddings. Look at all the people offering support of Phil Robertson after his comments in GQ magazine. Look at the communities of commenters on conservative Christian minded websites still citing debunked claims that gay people are exceedingly likely to molest children or are incapable of being decent parents and whatnot. And as I said earlier, look at all the people abandoning needy children just because some Christian organization said they were going to hire gay Christians to assist in humanitarian endeavors.

              "whole communities"?
              To be clear, not any unified communities that I know of, but I did see reports that thousands of Christians had abandoned the children they'd agreed to sponsor. "Thousands" could very well be considered a community on its own.

              You are SO FAR out of touch with reality it's not even funny. PLEASE demonstrate where Christians are committing these atrocities in the name of Christ to any degree even CLOSE to what militant Islam does in the name of Muhammud.
              First of all, you're conflating. All acts of terrorism are atrocities, but not all atrocities are acts of terrorism. Besides, as I mentioned, I was alluding more to actions done throughout history--focusing on the West alone, I'd say the actions of the Christian-claiming Ku Klux Klan weren't too far off from what Islam-claiming terrorist groups do. Orthodox Christians in Romania were involved in carrying out pogroms. Some Christians in the US bombed abortion clinics--you and I both disapprove of abortion, but you agree that bombing such a clinic is an atrocity that also constitutes terrorism, correct? The 1996 Olympics bomber was also a professed Christian. And if we expand outside the West...although it motivated more by race than religion, the Rwandan genocide of 1994 was committed by members of a country that's mostly Christian, which means that some of the Hutus who murdered the Tutsis were probably Christians who somehow reconciled their faith with committing genocide. Of the sum total of atrocities and terroristic acts committed throughout history, the majority have indeed likely been Christian.

              Furthermore...

              So, let's stick with current events --- please provide answers the the challenges I have posed for you.
              ...certainly Christians aren't known for many acts of terrorism today, but Christian terrorism actually does still exist. The Lord's Resistance Army, known for abducting children to force them into battle and committing murder, rape and pillaging, is still active. The National Liberation Front of Tripura, known for forcibly converting Hindu villagers to Christianity and using rape as intimidation methods, is apparently still active as well. And, of course, there's the Norwegian bomber Anders Breivik.

              But *I* am the one who's out of touch with reality, huh?

              And to be clear, I'm not saying that Christianity is inherently a bad thing. I believe it's inherently/ideally a beautiful thing. I don't raise all these examples to cast it in a bad light; rather, I'm trying to show that religiously-motivated atrocities are ultimately a sign of the failing of the human condition, not of some inherent evil in Christianity or in Islam.
              Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

              I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                But *I* am the one who's out of touch with reality, huh?
                Yes. Yes, you are.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                  Look at all the people celebrating Indiana's "religious freedom" bill and standing by pizza makers who refuse to do something as simple and polite as making a few pizzas that gay people wish to consume at weddings.
                  So, this, in your poor challenged way of thinking, is somehow on a par with people pouring into the streets firing AK-47s in the air shouting Death to America?

                  Yes, you are REALLY out of touch with reality.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                    And, of course, there's the Norwegian bomber Anders Breivik.
                    I'm not going to deal with the other examples you mentioned, but claiming that Anders Breivik's acts of terror was an act of Christian terror is just ridiculous. There's no way an honest person acquainted with the facts could in good conscience claim that Breivik was even close to being a genuine Christian after having read the pertinent section of his manifesto (mainly the section about cultural Christendom).
                    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      I'm not going to deal with the other examples you mentioned, but claiming that Anders Breivik's acts of terror was an act of Christian terror is just ridiculous. There's no way an honest person acquainted with the facts could in good conscience claim that Breivik was even close to being a genuine Christian after having read the pertinent section of his manifesto (mainly the section about cultural Christendom).
                      Yeah, there's a HUGE difference between an act of terror being committed by somebody who happens to be a Christian (or have any link to Christianity) and somebody who clearly terrorizes in the name of, and for the sake of, a particular religion or supposed deity.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        So, this, in your poor challenged way of thinking, is somehow on a par with people pouring into the streets firing AK-47s in the air shouting Death to America?

                        Yes, you are REALLY out of touch with reality.
                        Is this an Islamic thing? Or is it a product of regional and international politics?

                        US forces, according to the Iraq Body Count Project, were responsible for over 15,000 civilian deaths in Iraq through 2011, most clustered in the first few years when the war was still approved by over half of Americans polled. It's difficult to see how a family, a village, or a state so affected by an invasion wouldn't harbor resentment or animosity.

                        Look at politics and culture before religion. Odds are, you'll find your smoking gun there.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Yes. Yes, you are.
                          So are those who wrote that "Letter to Baghdati". They are either ignorant, lying, or willfully blind.

                          Source: Letter to Baghdati

                          10- It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the
                          Scripture’.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          9:29 Fight [q-t-l] against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Hilali and Khan)

                          Apparently fighting and killing people unless they pay protection money is not "mistreating them in any way".

                          That's just one of the many, many problems in that letter. Others would be that jihad is only defensive, slavery is forbidden in Islam(sorry, but Mohammed, nor Islamic teaching knows anything of "universal consensus"), and you can't force people to convert. I know what the defenses are of some of these, but they fail to take into account Islamic teaching on abrogation. Later teachings overrule older teachings if there is conflict. Mohammed had the "nice" verses like "no compulsion in religion" while he was in Mecca, before he was thrown out. He taught things like "only Islam is accepted" when he lived in Medina.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Yes, my Dentist, for years, was a Muslim. My GP was Muslim, and I recently had outpatient surgery by a Muslim recently from Turkey. I liked them all, and they were seeming nice folks, but you can not always know a man's heart.
                            "I'm not disparaging muslims, some of my best friends are muslim!"

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              assuming without evidence a malicious intent that was, for whatever reason, simply not acted upon.
                              Not at all. You point to the large majority as evidence that the generalisation is most likely false; I point that that the comparison is not likely to be equivalent given the plausibly very different contexts.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                Not at all. You point to the large majority as evidence that the generalisation is most likely false; I point that that the comparison is not likely to be equivalent given the plausibly very different contexts.
                                That's what you pointed out the first time -- that doesn't hold, however, given that this is a rarely reported occurrence, even though the situation of mixed-religion refugees and immigrants at sea is probably very common.

                                So, yes — pointing out that the large majority of immigration-by-sea don't include reported cases of Muslim-on-Christian violence is sufficient to rebut the generalization that such behavior is normative.
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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