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  • Double Standard?

    Why doesn't this surprise me?

    Denver's Azucar Bakery wins right to refuse to make anti-gay cakes

    DENVER - Colorado's legal battles between religious freedom and gay rights continue to play out in the not-so-sweet arena of bakery cake requests.

    Last week, the Colorado Civil Rights Division ruled that Denver's Azucar Bakery did not discriminate against William Jack, a Christian from Castle Rock, by refusing to make two cakes with anti-gay messages and imagery that he requested last year.

    The dispute began March 13, 2014 when Jack went to the bakery at 1886 S. Broadway and requested two cakes shaped like bibles. He asked that one cake have the image of two groomsmen holding hands in front of a cross with a red "X" over them. He asked that the cake be decorated with the biblical verses, "God hates sin. Psalm 45:7" and "Homosexuality is a detestable sin. Leviticus 18:2", according to the Civil Rights Divisions' decision.

    On the second bible-shaped cake, Jack also requested the image of the two groomsmen with the red "X". He wanted it decorated with the words "God loves sinners" and "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8."

    He told the civil rights agency he ordered the cakes with the imagery and biblical verses to convey that same-sex marriage is, in his words, "un-biblical and inappropriate."

    Marjorie Silva, the owner of the bakery, told Jack that she would make him the bible-shaped cakes, but would not decorate them with the biblical verses and the image of the groomsmen that he requested. Instead, she offered to provide him with icing and a pastry bag so he could write or draw whatever messages he wished on the cakes.

    http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...-anti-gay-cake
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    I suspect the difference in this case is that the baker agreed to make the cakes but wouldn't decorate them as requested.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      I suspect the difference in this case is that the baker agreed to make the cakes but wouldn't decorate them as requested.
      But haven't liberals been telling us that no one should discriminate, for any reason? And of course the decoration was the main part of the order.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        But haven't liberals been telling us that no one should discriminate, for any reason? And of course the decoration was the main part of the order.
        You don't know what the word "discrimination" means.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
          You don't know what the word "discrimination" means.
          Power Word: Discrimination: enables potentially lucrative, nearly always frivolous legal action against people making personal decisions that offend the user.

          No relation to the actual word, meaning "the act of choosing between alternatives."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Why doesn't this surprise me?
            Discrimination is about being negative towards a particular group of people based on their personal characteristics. Do you understand the difference between being negative and positive? Let me explain, because you don't seem to get it.

            If someone is having a wedding, and celebrating the happiest day of their life, then baking them a cake and helping them celebrate the happiest day of their life is a nice thing to do. It's something positive. Helping others celebrate their happiness on the most special day of their lives is something something nice, sociable, loving, kind, people would want to do.

            Whereas, if you say "no, I can't have you being happy, because you have some personal characteristics I despise and hate, and my religious beliefs tell me to be nasty to you. Therefore rather than help you celebrate your happiness I'm going to be as nasty as possible and express my objection to your wedding even though I wasn't asked, and in no way support you in your celebrations of your happiness and try my best to make you unhappy on your special day." That's a negative thing to do. Being out to stop the happiness of others and doing their best to ruin the most special day in someone else's life is something nasty, anti-social, hate-filled, malicious people would want to do. And doing it due to their personal characteristics (being gay) makes it "discrimination".

            Now in this example, the guy wanted "two cakes with anti-gay messages" according to your quoted article. Let me break "anti-gay" down for you. There is the negative component: "anti". And there is the personal characteristic: "gay". Combine those together and you get discrimination. The guy wanted a cake baked with a discriminatory message. The bakery turned him down because the bakery doesn't approve of discrimination. In this example, the man wanting the cakes baked is trying to express nastiness and hate towards a select group of people based on their personal characteristics - he is the one trying to discriminate. Whereas the bakery are the ones refusing to be a part of such an act of discrimination.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              But haven't liberals been telling us that no one should discriminate, for any reason? And of course the decoration was the main part of the order.
              I know what you're saying, and it clearly is a double standard, but legally, the fact that the baker was willing to meet the request halfway is almost certainly what made the difference in court.

              But it does beg the question: Why is it O.K. to refuse half the order but not the whole order? Especially when the impetus behind both actions is identical?
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                I know what you're saying, and it clearly is a double standard, but legally, the fact that the baker was willing to meet the request halfway is almost certainly what made the difference in court.

                But it does beg the question: Why is it O.K. to refuse half the order but not the whole order? Especially when the impetus behind both actions is identical?
                It wasn't a decision from a court and the agency that made the decision cited the "derogatory language and imagery" being ordered for the cake:

                Source: Denver's Azucar Bakery wins right to refuse to make anti-gay cakes. Alan Gathright, Eric Lupher. ABC7News, Denver. 2015.04.04



                The agency's decision found that the baker did not discriminate against Jack based on his creed. Instead, officials state the evidence shows Silva refused to make the cakes because the customer's requests included "derogatory language and imagery."

                The baker said "in the same manner [she] would not accept [an order from] anyone wanting to make a discriminatory cake against Christians, [she] will not make one that discriminates against gays," according to the decision.


                "The evidence demonstrates that [Silva] would deny such requests to any customer, regardless of creed," the civil rights agency's decision stated.

                © Copyright Original Source



                Can't be compelled to publish another person's speech. Simple as that.
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Therefore rather than help you celebrate your happiness I'm going to be as nasty as possible and express my objection to your wedding even though I wasn't asked, and in no way support you in your celebrations of your happiness and try my best to make you unhappy on your special day." That's a negative thing to do. Being out to stop the happiness of others and doing their best to ruin the most special day in someone else's life is something nasty, anti-social, hate-filled, malicious people would want to do. And doing it due to their personal characteristics (being gay) makes it "discrimination".
                  Not making a cake for someone does not ruin their wedding reception unless they happen to be the only bakery with the recipe for cake

                  I don't understand why you and others assume "hatred" is involved. You don't condone something, so you can't support it, you wish the person well and say goodbye. I don't condone same sex marriage and I certainly don't hate gay people
                  Last edited by hamster; 04-05-2015, 06:52 PM.
                  "Some people feel guilty about their anxieties and regard them as a defect of faith but they are afflictions, not sins. Like all afflictions, they are, if we can so take them, our share in the passion of Christ." - That Guy Everyone Quotes

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hamster View Post
                    Not making a cake for someone does not ruin their wedding reception unless they happen to be the only bakery with the recipe for cake
                    It's part and parcel of ongoing attempts by those Christians who are anti-gay to make having a gay wedding as difficult as possible. Firstly it was making sure it's illegal. Then it moved to making sure Churches were banned from hosting, clergy were banned from officiating. Now it's moved to caterers not catering.

                    It's just the latest in a long line of things aimed at making gay people suffer as much as possible. People who are out to get other people and make them suffer are evil.

                    I don't understand why you and others assume "hatred" is involved.
                    I can't know people's hearts, but I can judge them by their actions. When their actions are full of hatred and evil, that's what I have to assume their hearts are full of.

                    I don't condone same sex marriage and I certainly don't hate gay people
                    Okay, so your beliefs are incoherent and your views self-contradictory...
                    I guess that's not overly surprising for a Christian.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It's part and parcel of ongoing attempts by those Christians who are anti-gay to make having a gay wedding as difficult as possible. Firstly it was making sure it's illegal. Then it moved to making sure Churches were banned from hosting, clergy were banned from officiating. Now it's moved to caterers not catering.
                      I see no reason why not feeling comfortable participating in a same sex marriage makes a person part of a large political conspiracy. That's like saying a person's vegetarianism is necessarily part of a larger move to bring down the beef industry

                      Okay, so your beliefs are incoherent and your views self-contradictory...
                      Really? Someone does something you don't condone so you experience hatred for them? You must hate a lot of people.

                      I mean, seriously? Is your emotional spectrum THAT simple?

                      Vegetarian? Hate people who eat meat
                      Sober? Hates people who drink
                      Doesn't condone playing videogames all day? Burns with a hatred for gamers so intense its light and heat can be experienced from the surface of the moon
                      Last edited by hamster; 04-05-2015, 07:14 PM.
                      "Some people feel guilty about their anxieties and regard them as a defect of faith but they are afflictions, not sins. Like all afflictions, they are, if we can so take them, our share in the passion of Christ." - That Guy Everyone Quotes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Okay, so your beliefs are incoherent and your views self-contradictory...
                        I guess that's not overly surprising for a Christian.
                        You're talking about two different categories of things: a propositional affirmation or rejection and an emotion; just as a person could support same-sex marriage and hate gay persons, a person can oppose same-sex marriage and not hate gay persons. A person can be wrong and not be malicious, after all.

                        No benefit in casting all opposition as emotionally-based.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          Can't be compelled to publish another person's speech. Simple as that.
                          "You can't compel me to publish your speech, but I can compel you to violate your religious values."

                          Double standard.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            "You can't compel me to publish your speech, but I can compel you to violate your religious values."

                            Double standard.
                            Your subjects are a bit messed up:

                            "The Constitution of the United States prevents the government from compelling someone to publish another's speech but allows for generally-applicable and neutral laws to impinge on the religious values of certain individuals."

                            Not that this incredibly over-simplified sentence of yours was the content behind the "double-standard" initially stated. There, you were making a reference to a specific situation and conflating events that were not, in fact, identical in the context of what's being discussed. In that respect, you were clearly wrong on several important counts.
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Being out to stop the happiness of others and doing their best to ruin the most special day in someone else's life is something nasty, anti-social, hate-filled, malicious people would want to do.
                              Your insistence on attacking the character of people with whom you disagree is damaging to your credibility. If you'd like to convince anyone of...well, anything...then perhaps you should stop.
                              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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