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  • #76
    Seems like you misunderstood my comments. I care about people and their wellbeing. What I do not care about is my genes. You still haven't explained why I should. You seem to be assuming my genes are significantly different to everyone else's and significantly better than everyone else's, both of which just strike me as strange beliefs.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Seems like you misunderstood my comments. I care about people and their wellbeing. What I do not care about is my genes. You still haven't explained why I should. You seem to be assuming my genes are significantly different to everyone else's and significantly better than everyone else's, both of which just strike me as strange beliefs.
      I'm not saying you should care about your genes. I personally don't care if you care or not. I'm saying that you don't, and because you don't you and others like you are failed organisms from a naturalistic perspective. And the fact that you don't care might indicate why.
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        because you don't you and others like you are failed organisms from a naturalistic perspective.
        I'm unfamiliar with the term 'failed organisms'. Google's giving me nothing on it... did you make it up?

        It's cute you invent reasoning from a 'naturalistic perspective'. How about you leave us atheists to say what conclusions our own beliefs entail, instead of making up absurdities and inventing terms that we supposedly ought to believe? Funnily enough, people who actually believe things tend to be better at working out what their own beliefs entail than do biased 3rd parties. Instead stick with telling your fellow Christians what your shared beliefs entail.
        Last edited by Starlight; 03-19-2015, 05:34 PM.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #79
          You do know logic doesn't work that way, right? The conclusion follows or it doesn't regardless of the religious persuasion of the reasoner.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            I'm unfamiliar with the term 'failed organisms'. Google's giving me nothing on it... did you make it up?
            It's not a "term", it's two words strung together with a fairly simple everyday meaning. I originally just used the term dysgenic but apparently you had issues with that.

            It's cute you invent reasoning from a 'naturalistic perspective'. How about you leave us atheists to say what conclusions our own beliefs entail, instead of making up absurdities and inventing terms that we supposedly ought to believe? Funnily enough, people who actually believe things tend to be better at working out what their own beliefs entail than do biased 3rd parties. Instead stick with telling your fellow Christians what your shared beliefs entail.
            While I'd like to take credit for the idea, it was originally introduced to me by an agnostic so... More importantly though I'm not sure where you get off telling me what to think and not think about. Since your demographic and other demographics similar to yours infests virtually all power structures in my society I pretty much have a duty to not only think about the issue but share my insights and the insights I've picked up from others on the matter.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              You do know logic doesn't work that way, right? The conclusion follows or it doesn't regardless of the religious persuasion of the reasoner.
              Pure logic itself doesn't work like that, sure. But fallible human understanding and psychology does. 3rd parties often misunderstand people's beliefs and views, and so regularly assume that person X's beliefs entail Y when nothing of the sort is true, because they have misunderstood what person X believes.

              People themselves are usually pretty good at working out what their own beliefs entail.



              D.E.: Your view seems some sort of weird hybrid of Dawkins and Hitler that manages to misunderstand both. The spread of ideas can potentially be thought of as evolutionary in nature, with some ideas spreading better than others. But ideas are not spread via genes. Spreading my genes widely would do nothing to affect the spread of atheism or any other idea. Your position just seems to lack any underlying rationale.
              Last edited by Starlight; 03-19-2015, 06:10 PM.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                People themselves are usually pretty good at working out what their own beliefs entail.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Pinitial point stands.re logic itself doesn't work like that, sure. But fallible human understanding and psychology does. 3rd parties often misunderstand people's beliefs and views, and so regularly assume that person X's beliefs entail Y when nothing of the sort is true, because they have misunderstood what person X believes.

                  People themselves are usually pretty good at working out what their own beliefs entail.
                  Were that true you should have simply given a straight refutation. That you attacked the messenger says more about the weakness of your case than DE's ability to correctly assess it.

                  We can safely assume his initial point stands.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    D.E.: Your view seems some sort of weird hybrid of Dawkins and Hitler that manages to misunderstand both.
                    That's probably because they're not a hybrid of Dawkins and Hitler.

                    The spread of ideas can potentially be thought of as evolutionary in nature, with some ideas spreading better than others. But ideas are not spread via genes. Spreading my genes widely would do nothing to affect the spread of atheism or any other idea. Your position just seems to lack any underlying rationale.
                    More like you don't have more than the most simple understanding of evolution (if that). For starters, religiosity is heritable. So while specific ideas may not transmit via genes, one's preference for what to believe (if anything) does. Then there's the fact that ideas do influence which genes spread and which don't. Atheism and other liberal religions beliefs, for example, influence the patient to self-sterilize. In other words, they are dysgenic traits and would be even if they were not heritable.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      lilpixieofterror: Pretending that widespread and severe racial injustice in the US ended 70 years ago is absurd.
                      I never said that, but do keep attacking these piles of straw because I'm sure they will become true if you repeat them enough, eh?

                      Go read about the Department of Justice's report on Ferguson released two weeks ago. I would have a different position on these issues if they were indeed only historical injustices, and weren't part on an ongoing history of discrimination that has continued down to the present day.
                      Yep and the way to end giving people advantages based on their race is to give people advantages based on their race. Yeah, that will help end racial injustice and make people get along? Do you think the way to end racial discrimination against blacks is to instigate racial discrimination against whites? Imagine that, it doesn't solve the problems of racial strife and just makes sure that they continue generation after generation. You'd think that you'd learn that over 50 years of using the same failed policies would convince you that your plans are failures, but I guess it will take a few more decades before you'd admit that racial discrimination, against white people, is just as bad of an idea as racial discrimination against black/brown people. Now when you're done in your fantasy land of make believe; we'll try this reality thing again.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        It's cute you invent reasoning from a 'naturalistic perspective'. How about you leave us atheists to say what conclusions our own beliefs entail, instead of making up absurdities and inventing terms that we supposedly ought to believe? Funnily enough, people who actually believe things tend to be better at working out what their own beliefs entail than do biased 3rd parties. Instead stick with telling your fellow Christians what your shared beliefs entail.

                        Aren't you the guy who's posted about what Christianity really entails about homosexuality?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          That's mildly interesting at a scientific level. But it's clear that culture and education and society have a much, much, greater effect to the point where genetics is largely irrelevant.

                          eg, in my country New Zealand, in 1956, fewer than 1% of people wrote on the census that they had no religious beliefs. But over the last 40 years, the number of people indicating no religion on the census has grown steadily at a fairly linear rate of one percentage point per year:

                          There's been little genetic change in the population from one generation to the next. But there's been a >40x shift in religious non-adherence. (What genetic change there's been, due to immigration, has been largely religious immigrants who are Christian, Muslim, or Sikh, which is actually reducing the rate of increase of people answering 'no religion')

                          In my own immediate family, my parents' generation (parents + their siblings) have 100% stated adherence to Christianity (~80% of them regularly attend church), while myself and my siblings have a 0% rate of religion (although it's possible that one of my brothers would write 'Christian' on the census form, but none of us attend church). No genetic change, but a 100% swing in religion. Given that, do you seriously expect me to think "gee, I ought to have lots of kids so they can share my religious views because they share my genes"?!? Obviously my own family isn't a statistically significant sample size, but I see exactly the same thing in the families of all my friends, and the national statistical data says the same thing.

                          It's an interesting cultural question of why some countries are becoming less religious faster than others though. Of the English-speaking world, the UK & NZ are each seeing rates of about 1 percentage point per year increase in non-religion, while Canada and Australia are getting roughly half that, and the US and Ireland are seeing much slower increases. (Genetics, however, are not really legitimate explanations, since all these countries have predominantly people of British descent and that hasn't changed from one generation to the next, and insofar as it has the immigrants are far more religious on average that the general population)
                          Last edited by Starlight; 03-19-2015, 08:04 PM.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Aren't you the guy who's posted about what Christianity really entails about homosexuality?
                            I used to be a Christian who was deeply interested in theology and biblical interpretation, and who as a Christian considered myself an expert on both. A significant part of why I no longer identify as even nominally Christian was the widespread attitudes of other Christians towards gay rights. Even after I'd stopped believing the supernatural components of Christianity, I still assumed that Christianity was morally good because it taught people to treat others well, but the modern gay rights issues disabused me of that notion and led me to re-examine Christianity's role in various moral issues in history and I concluded that Christianity was in fact a significant force for moral evil in our society.

                            So, no, I'm not hypocritically falling into the trap of making up stuff that I think others ought to believe without any serious knowledge of their beliefs. When I was a Christian I thought Christians, as Christians, ought to support gay rights out of love and compassion due to what the bible said. I continue to think that as an atheist - but it's not a position that I made up as an atheist and suddenly decided that Christians ought to believe it.
                            Last edited by Starlight; 03-19-2015, 08:01 PM.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              And at the same time we are seeing a number of young people, coming from homes where their parents (or grandparents or whatever whānau member they are living with) becoming Christians.

                              Heck, this evening I'm fetching a bunch of high school kids from Paeroa, who aren't from Christian homes, so they can attend Youth, and these kids are regulars.
                              Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                              1 Corinthians 16:13

                              "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                              -Ben Witherington III

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                That's mildly interesting at a scientific level. But it's clear that culture and education and society have a much, much, greater effect to the point where genetics is largely irrelevant.
                                I'm not sure what this has to do with anything I've said, but it commits the common error of splitting genetic and environmental effects into distinct piles. Sometimes (like in this case) they are impossible to split up properly because they are not mutually exclusive).

                                eg, in my country New Zealand, in 1956, fewer than 1% of people wrote on the census that they had no religious beliefs. But over the last 40 years, the number of people indicating no religion on the census has grown steadily at a fairly linear rate of one percentage point per year:
                                I think you're a bit confused. Genetic predisposition does not mean you will act on it. So yes, society will have a large effect. For example, if all your cultural institutions are dominated by irreligious progressives who reduce the benefits of following the mainstream religion, more people than ever will feel free to indulge in the religion that fits them best (or none, if none of them do). This doesn't mean there's no genetic religious inclination, or that people became non-religious because of education. They could simply have become less religious because that was their existing inclination and now they are free to pursue it. Previously, when Christianity was a cultural institution and significant social and political behemoth you had greater Christian religious identification since there was an incentive to override your instincts.

                                This is all academic though. Even if genetics only had a small impact, the dysgenic effects of atheism would not be any lesser. It just means that the set of people potentially vulnerable to those effects is sizable. If anything, the less genetic inclination towards atheism was, the more of a threat it would be to humanity's future.

                                It's an interesting cultural question of why some countries are becoming less religious faster than others though. Of the English-speaking world, the UK & NZ are each seeing rates of about 1 percentage point per year increase in non-religion, while Canada and Australia are getting roughly half that, and the US and Ireland are seeing much slower increases. (Genetics, however, are not really legitimate explanations, since all these countries have predominantly people of British descent and that hasn't changed from one generation to the next, and insofar as it has the immigrants are far more religious on average that the general population)
                                Ireland is Celtic, an ethnic group distinct from the English. And the United States has always had a significant non-British population that only got bigger as time went on. Today whites are about 69% of the population and a significant portion of that is not of British origins. Canada has a significant French population and has had a considerable immigrant intake over the last couple of decades. There's actually less genetic conformity between these countries than you might think if you never actually google their demographics.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                                Comment

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