Originally posted by Sam
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Impending Minimum Wage hike causing restaurants to close
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNo, Sam - not even close. A tax increase does NOT force citizens to spend money in a specific government mandated manner, giving funds to other individuals.
You are in a nosedive with the 'unfunded mandate' rationale for implying that a mandated wage increase is unfair. You are simply using the term incorrectly, even by your chosen definition. And you've argued that state relief to the poor isn't necessarily immoral or unfair, even though that relief has to be paid through some redistributive means.
So imagine that the government, instead of mandating a higher wage to your employee, mandated a higher tax from you and then simply gave your employees a supplemental credit paid from your higher tax burden. Is that an "unfunded mandate"?"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostInteresting -- though it's not the NYTimes, and it's arguing AGAINST the complaint that unfunded mandates are the biggest problems states face, National Review lists minimum wage increases as ONE of the TWO unfunded mandates that are the exception....
What it boils down to, Sam, is that those of us who actually sign the FRONTS of paychecks will argue this as "unfunded mandates", while those who only sign the BACKS of paychecks (or government assistance checks) will argue that they are NOT.
What this boils down to is that you're simply using the term wrong. Plain wrong.
ETA: Think about it this way — if funds were allocated for these public actions, they would not be "unfunded mandates." How would these actions be funded? Through revenue derived from the private sector. If paying for a mandate from revenue derived from the private sector constitutes an "unfunded mandate" then literally everything would be an unfunded mandate. The term would be, quite literally, meaningless.Last edited by Sam; 03-22-2015, 07:46 PM."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostA mandate need not be directed at specific allocation of funds (e.g., Clean Air Act).
You are in a nosedive with the 'unfunded mandate' rationale for implying that a mandated wage increase is unfair. You are simply using the term incorrectly, even by your chosen definition. And you've argued that state relief to the poor isn't necessarily immoral or unfair, even though that relief has to be paid through some redistributive means.
So imagine that the government, instead of mandating a higher wage to your employee, mandated a higher tax from you and then simply gave your employees a supplemental credit paid from your higher tax burden. Is that an "unfunded mandate"?
Play games all you will -- the effect is the same.
I enter into a contract to pay a specific amount agreeable to my employee, and a third party steps in and breaks my contract, forcing me to spend more of MY money.
You're obviously quite alright with that.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostContext, little one. The 'case' in that post referred to the reason why conservatives oppose the redistribution understanding of Jubilee.
Bless your little confused heart"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI completely understand why you would not see it as unfunded mandate, Sam, as you have never signed the front of a paycheck.
Play games all you will -- the effect is the same.
I enter into a contract to pay a specific amount agreeable to my employee, and a third party steps in and breaks my contract, forcing me to spend more of MY money.
You're obviously quite alright with that."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostShould I not be? Is it immoral?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostSo, you think a philanthropic loan (one that was only given to other Israelites by the way) is wealth redistribution? You think this was so scary that it was being avoided huh?
Again, considering that we have no evidence that Jubilee was even observed, what does this have to do with anything? I think maybe we should all chip in to "redistribute" a few history books to you and Sam."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sam View PostShould I not be? Is it immoral?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou need to figure that out for yourself."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostSupposedly, you have an opinion on whether or not such an action is immoral, given that you asked whether it was fair. You're not going all moral relativist, I'm certain, so I expect that you do believe that it is either moral or immoral.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI completely understand why you would not see it as unfunded mandate, Sam, as you have never signed the front of a paycheck.
Play games all you will -- the effect is the same.
I enter into a contract to pay a specific amount agreeable to my employee, and a third party steps in and breaks my contract, forcing me to spend more of MY money.
You're obviously quite alright with that.
* Full time considered a 40 hour work week, 52 weeks out of the year.
Source: http://www.globalrichlist.com/"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostI've never signed one myself, but even I understand how bad doubling the min wage is. Besides, even if you only made 10,000 dollars a year, you're still fall in at 16.01% of the world's population by income, being richer than you with the rest being poorer. If you assume a full time* min wage, you're at 7.80%, in terms of the wealthiest in the world. At 15 dollars an hour, full time work*, you're at 1.10%, in terms of the world's richest. Interesting how they don't want to redistribute their wealth to the other 80% of the world, that lives on far less than they do, while calling those richer than them greedy (while ignoring their own greed).
* Full time considered a 40 hour work week, 52 weeks out of the year.
Source: http://www.globalrichlist.com/"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOK.
You indicated that a third party mandating a higher wage for your employee would be unfair, which has to be understood in an ethical or moral framework. But you're not willing to claim that it would be immoral. That either means that 1) you really think it would be immoral but can't connect that with your support of taxation and relief to the poor or 2) you're not using "fair" in the framework of ethics or morals and are using it in a framework like a baseball game, where one team's superiority makes the match unfair but not unethical.
If (2), one has to ask why we should care that it's unfair — that's life!
If (1), there shouldn't be any reason why you can't call the action of mandating a higher wage is immoral, even though it complicates your previous position from a logical perspective."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Sam View PostSee, that's my problem: you tried to chide me for misrepresenting your position and refused to detail what your position is. So when you write things that are pretty clearly congruent with how I've represented your position and I push for clarification, it's not really OK to throw out a specious argument and then fade back.
You indicated that a third party mandating a higher wage for your employee would be unfair, which has to be understood in an ethical or moral framework.
But you're not willing to claim that it would be immoral.
That either means that 1) you really think it would be immoral but can't connect that with your support of taxation and relief to the poor or 2) you're not using "fair" in the framework of ethics or morals and are using it in a framework like a baseball game, where one team's superiority makes the match unfair but not unethical.
If (2), one has to ask why we should care that it's unfair — that's life!
If (1), there shouldn't be any reason why you can't call the action of mandating a higher wage is immoral, even though it complicates your previous position from a logical perspective.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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