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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I'm not sure that I ever asserted that you claimed that the first thing that should be done is to change the laws. My point was simply that I did not see how your statement interacted with what I wrote in my post in any relevant sense.
    I do not see how this is the case.

    Comment



    • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      I haven't disputed that according to some of man's scribblings on papers you 'own' stuff.
      You are a riot! And, according to those 'scribblings on papers', I TRULY own stuff!

      I think you're almost as much fun as Mickiel, but slightly more lucid.

      And I want to get into that.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
        We are agreed that it is possible that the basic ownership relation of some things is communal. So let's consider a certain sum of money, that by a modern view of ownership belongs to an individual. However, if its basic ownership relation is communal, then it certainly does not belong to him alone, no matter what he thinks. If it is the case that such possibility exists, it opens up the possibility that redistribution can be moral.
        If it's basic ownership relation is communal is the main issue here it seems to me. I agreed with you that some ownership can legitimately be seen as communal. Do you have any specific arguments to the effect that money should be seen in this way? I can see the logic in for example the farms and roads of a village or city being communally owned. However, it seems to me that any money earned by an individual by his own efforts are his to use as he sees fit (although he should be exhorted to use this money in a wise manner) and that the community is not morally justified in forcibly taking his money from him.
        ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          And, according to those 'scribblings on papers', I TRULY own stuff!
          But you know that all things belong to God.

          Comment


          • Grow thread. Grow.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              But you know that all things belong to God.
              Never said they didn't. In FACT, I have said NUMEROUS times that I am a steward of those things.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                I do not see how this is the case.
                You wrote:

                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                Change doesn't necessarily have to be a wholesale overnight rewriting of all the laws.
                I do not see how anything that I wrote in the post you replied to that would lead you to conclude that I think anything to the effect that change would necessarily have to be "a wholesale overnight rewriting of all the laws". That is why I see the above quote as irrelevant to the post to which it was a reply.
                ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  If it's basic ownership relation is communal is the main issue here it seems to me. I agreed with you that some ownership can legitimately be seen as communal. Do you have any specific arguments to the effect that money should be seen in this way?
                  My main aim was to first argue that such a possibility may exists, for many would deny that even the possibility. I'm glad we find agreement on that, at least.

                  Do you have any specific arguments to the effect that money should be seen in this way?
                  I would like to emphasise that I do not claim that all money should be seen in this way, just as I don't claim that all forced distributions are justified.

                  I can see the logic in for example the farms and roads of a village or city being communally owned.
                  If such can be communally owned, then why not certain sums of money? Money, is after all, just a convenient medium of exchange and store of value, which can include values of farms and roads.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    I do not see how anything that I wrote in the post you replied to that would lead you to conclude that I think anything to the effect that change would necessarily have to be "a wholesale overnight rewriting of all the laws". That is why I see the above quote as irrelevant to the post to which it was a reply.
                    You made much about people probably protesting if such a conceptual change of legal ownership was made against their wishes. Given that I have not argued that change has to be forced in such a sudden manner, it is worth pointing out (imo) that not all change has to be of the sort you were talking about.

                    Comment


                    • Let me ask a question. I think we can all agree in this thread that the world and everything in it belongs to God. Now, if God said that the land is yours, would this not mean that the land is actually yours?
                      "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                        Let me ask a question. I think we can all agree in this thread that the world and everything in it belongs to God. Now, if God said that the land is yours, would this not mean that the land is actually yours?
                        Not TRULY!

                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                          Let me ask a question. I think we can all agree in this thread that the world and everything in it belongs to God. Now, if God said that the land is yours, would this not mean that the land is actually yours?
                          What Cow Poke said.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            You made much about people probably protesting if such a conceptual change of legal ownership was made against their wishes. Given that I have not argued that change has to be forced in such a sudden manner, it is worth pointing out (imo) that not all change has to be of the sort you were talking about.
                            Whether or not a change is sudden or not isn't really relevant to the point of whether or not the change in question is made against the wishes of the people. I'm quite cynical when it comes to the acuity of the general populace of the modern West, but I'm not cynical enough to think that you could succeed in trying to sneak in such a radical change in the concept of legal ownership without people noticing what was going on, even if you did not try to force it in a sudden manner, but rather tried to change the laws over a longer span of time, trying to slowly change peoples way of thinking on this issue instead of just steamrolling over their sensibilities.
                            ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                              Let me ask a question. I think we can all agree in this thread that the world and everything in it belongs to God. Now, if God said that the land is yours, would this not mean that the land is actually yours?
                              Depends on whether he meant it in the biblical and collectivistic sense of the term, or if he was using it in the modern and frankly misguided sense.


























































                              ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                Depends on whether he meant it in the biblical and collectivistic sense of the term, or if he was using it in the modern and frankly misguided sense.





                                EGGzackly!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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