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Impending Minimum Wage hike causing restaurants to close

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Patience. And I'm way too old to rocket.
    You're never too old to rocket.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
      You're never too old to rocket.
      I don't feel NEARLY as old as I am, and I'm told I look younger than that.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        So PLEASE DO!



        Patience. And I'm way too old to rocket.



        Ah! So you're going to turn this into a moral dilemma no matter what. No prob.



        i OWE you!?!?!??!!? I OWE you?!?!?!?! Is this another ENTITLEMENT?

        Sam, I don't owe you SQUAT!

        We're having a discussion, and as long as it holds my interest, I'll be happy to play.

        So, please, answer the question already.

        I'm guessing you're going to say it's completely fair, yes? Or "moral"?
        Yes, you chided me for misrepresenting your position and said that if I wanted to know, I should ask. I asked and requested a bit of detail so that I wouldn't misrepresent your position. Since you made the offer, you took the obligation. You owe, in other words.

        "Fair" implies a moral dilemma all by itself. If something should be fair then it is wrong for someone to make it unfair. You chose the word; I'm just lookin' to see how you're going to hold to it.

        So would it be immoral/unethical/wrong for a third party to do mandate a change in how much you pay a previously-contracted employee?
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
          Yes, you chided me for misrepresenting your position and said that if I wanted to know, I should ask. I asked and requested a bit of detail so that I wouldn't misrepresent your position. Since you made the offer, you took the obligation. You owe, in other words.
          I think you think much too highly of yourself.

          And I'm TRYING to answer, Sam, but apparently it's not in the format you demand.

          "Fair" implies a moral dilemma all by itself.
          Meh

          If something should be fair then it is wrong for someone to make it unfair. You chose the word; I'm just lookin' to see how you're going to hold to it.
          No prob, Mr. Pedantic.

          So would it be immoral/unethical/wrong for a third party to do mandate a change in how much you pay a previously-contracted employee?
          Yes - unless they were willing to pay for it. Otherwise, it's an unfunded mandate. Please feel free to call the PC police!
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I think you think much too highly of yourself.

            And I'm TRYING to answer, Sam, but apparently it's not in the format you demand.



            Meh



            No prob, Mr. Pedantic.



            Yes - unless they were willing to pay for it. Otherwise, it's an unfunded mandate. Please feel free to call the PC police!
            It's not unfunded if you're payin' it. Would it still be immoral then?
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
              It's not unfunded if you're payin' it.


              You really haven't got a clue what an "unfunded mandate" is, do you? But that's not surprising at all.

              BusinessDictionary.com -- An unfunded mandate is a statute or regulation that requires a state or local government to perform certain actions, with no money provided for fulfilling the requirements. Public individuals or organizations can also be required to fulfill public mandates.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                You really haven't got a clue what an "unfunded mandate" is, do you? But that's not surprising at all.

                BusinessDictionary.com -- An unfunded mandate is a statute or regulation that requires a state or local government to perform certain actions, with no money provided for fulfilling the requirements. Public individuals or organizations can also be required to fulfill public mandates.
                But if a third party forces you to "increase the amount of money you agreed to pay," it's not an unfunded mandate. The State isn't performing an action that requires funding; it's simply telling you that you have to pay your employee more.

                So it's not an unfunded mandate and the State does not need to fund the wage increase — you do. Is that immoral?
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  But a third party forces you to "increase the amount of money you agreed to pay," it's not an unfunded mandate.
                  Not in the eyes of a bleeding heart liberal.

                  The State isn't performing an action that requires funding; it's simply telling you that you have to pay your employee more.
                  Sam, you're really not this stupid, are you? WHERE is that money coming from?

                  So it's not an unfunded mandate and the State does not need to fund the wage increase — you do. Is that immoral?
                  Wow. It amazes me (it shouldn't!) that you can't see how terribly self-contradictory that statement is --- "the State" is requiring me to do something that costs money (a "mandate") and they are NOT providing the funds for it ("unfunded") - and you admit that I am the one that would have to come up with the funding.

                  THAT, Sam, is an UNFUNDED MANDATE.

                  AGAIN....

                  BusinessDictionary.com -- An unfunded mandate is a statute or regulation that requires a state or local government to perform certain actions, with no money provided for fulfilling the requirements. Public individuals or organizations can also be required to fulfill public mandates.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Not in the eyes of a bleeding heart liberal.



                    Sam, you're really not this stupid, are you? WHERE is that money coming from?



                    Wow. It amazes me (it shouldn't!) that you can't see how terribly self-contradictory that statement is --- "the State" is requiring me to do something that costs money (a "mandate") and they are NOT providing the funds for it ("unfunded") - and you admit that I am the one that would have to come up with the funding.

                    THAT, Sam, is an UNFUNDED MANDATE.

                    AGAIN....

                    BusinessDictionary.com -- An unfunded mandate is a statute or regulation that requires a state or local government to perform certain actions, with no money provided for fulfilling the requirements. Public individuals or organizations can also be required to fulfill public mandates.
                    No, an unfunded mandate would be something like Florida requiring that all welfare recipients be tested for drugs but providing no money for drug testing. If Minnesota raises the minimum wage to $14.14, that's not an unfunded mandate because there isn't any public service to fund: the money comes from the employer. You're just using the phrase wrong, even by your supplied definition.

                    So the wage increase comes out of your pocket and is not an "unfunded mandate." Is that immoral?
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      No, an unfunded mandate would be something like Florida requiring that all welfare recipients be tested for drugs but providing no money for drug testing.
                      Correct - something that costs money to do, but no money is provided with the legislation.

                      If Minnesota raises the minimum wage to $14.14, that's not an unfunded mandate because there isn't any public service to fund:
                      That's just buttdumb stupid. It STILL costs the provider money, and that money is not included in the legislation.

                      the money comes from the employer. You're just using the phrase wrong, even by your supplied definition.


                      Sam, if the State of Texas required all prisoners to have 12 more sq ft of living space each, and NO MONEY is provided to fund that -- it is an unfunded mandate.

                      If a municipality forces a homeowner in Galveston to install hurricane shelters on all windows, but provides no money - that is an unfunded mandate.

                      If I had the power to require you to take a course in general business, and provided no funding for it, that is an unfunded mandate.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Correct - something that costs money to do, but no money is provided with the legislation.



                        That's just buttdumb stupid. It STILL costs the provider money, and that money is not included in the legislation.





                        Sam, if the State of Texas required all prisoners to have 12 more sq ft of living space each, and NO MONEY is provided to fund that -- it is an unfunded mandate.
                        Not just something that costs money — something that costs public funds. Increasing the size of publicly-managed prison cells without funding the cost would be an unfunded mandate. Because it's a public action that costs public funds. Increasing the minimum wage for state or federal workers without allocating funding would likewise be an unfunded mandate.

                        But that doesn't apply to expenses arising from mandates on private sector businesses, like what you're talking about.

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        If a municipality forces a homeowner in Galveston to install hurricane shelters on all windows, but provides no money - that is an unfunded mandate.

                        If I had the power to require you to take a course in general business, and provided no funding for it, that is an unfunded mandate.
                        Neither of these are unfunded mandates. You're simply using the term wrong. It refers to public institutions and persons, not private institutions and persons.
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • From the Department of Labor.... This is a scream....

                          Governors across the country are fighting against unfunded mandates. Isn't the minimum wage an unfunded mandate on businesses and states?

                          The minimum wage is not a new unfunded mandate. In fact, given the erosion of the value of the minimum wage over the last 15 years it is now much less of a mandate on businesses and the public sector than it used to be.


                          It's not a NEW unfunded mandate.... and it's "much less of a mandate on business than it used to be".

                          So, those who MANDATE it obviously don't want to call it an unfunded mandate, and those who have to PAY it (or force people to pay it) say it is.

                          This is like that whole healthcare thing ... it's a "tax" when we want it to be, but it's NOT a "tax" when we don't want it to be.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Yes. It applied to voluntary contracts where land was sold yet it mandates the land to be given back.
                            Exactly. This only applied to voluntary contracts between two parties and is nothing like the forced "redistribution" that liberal morons like you and Sam keep whooping and hollering about.

                            I keep waiting for one of you guys to produce a verse that says, "If thy brother hath considerable wealth, thou shalt seize it forcibly and giveth freely to the poor out of thy brother's excess," because based on your arguments, you're apparently convinced that such a verse exists.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              From the Department of Labor.... This is a scream....

                              Governors across the country are fighting against unfunded mandates. Isn't the minimum wage an unfunded mandate on businesses and states?

                              The minimum wage is not a new unfunded mandate. In fact, given the erosion of the value of the minimum wage over the last 15 years it is now much less of a mandate on businesses and the public sector than it used to be.


                              It's not a NEW unfunded mandate.... and it's "much less of a mandate on business than it used to be".

                              So, those who MANDATE it obviously don't want to call it an unfunded mandate, and those who have to PAY it (or force people to pay it) say it is.

                              This is like that whole healthcare thing ... it's a "tax" when we want it to be, but it's NOT a "tax" when we don't want it to be.
                              Simple matter of definition: if it's not referring to public institutions or people, it's not an unfunded mandate. Arguing that it is would be just like arguing that increasing taxes is an unfunded mandate because the increased tax cost isn't provided by the government but paid by private citizens.

                              Given that, would it be immoral for a third party to mandate increased wages?
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                Simple matter of definition: if it's not referring to public institutions or people, it's not an unfunded mandate. Arguing that it is would be just like arguing that increasing taxes is an unfunded mandate because the increased tax cost isn't provided by the government but paid by private citizens.

                                Given that, would it be immoral for a third party to mandate increased wages?
                                Interesting -- though it's not the NYTimes, and it's arguing AGAINST the complaint that unfunded mandates are the biggest problems states face, National Review lists minimum wage increases as ONE of the TWO unfunded mandates that are the exception....

                                Source: NationalReview

                                Unfunded mandates, however, didn’t cause the current state budget messes. Only two significant mandates have been enacted since the 1995 Unfunded Mandates Reform Act, according to a new report from the Congressional Budget Office. They are the 1996 minimum-wage increase, and the 1998 limit on federal reimbursements for state food-stamp administrative costs. (The funding status of a third mandate, the 2001 port-security bill, is still undetermined.)

                                Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...es-brian-riedl

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                What it boils down to, Sam, is that those of us who actually sign the FRONTS of paychecks will argue this as "unfunded mandates", while those who only sign the BACKS of paychecks (or government assistance checks) will argue that they are NOT.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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