Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Originally posted by Sam View PostYou're the one who wants to argue the topic without examining the context: if you had read the previous thread about this prior to assuming what the argument was about, we might not be in this mess. The original context was about the immorality of wealth distribution in light of ancient Israelite law. I'm not saying this is your argument (I don't really know what your argument or complaint is at this point, to be honest) but it was the argument that brought up this topic and carries it forward at present.
You should've at least skimmed that thread before jumping into the deep end — I didn't bring this argument with all of its baggage to your door; my original post to you on this matter was:
On which, I believe, we now agree.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostTo be fair I don't recall Cow Poke having argued anywhere that forced wealth redistribution is immoral. But it is a reasonable conclusion to come to, given that he was digging in his heels to not recognise that redistribution was a reasonable interpretation of Jubilee because he thought it was to be used to support Obama's policies or some other.
But we're definitely sitting in the middle of a big hot mess of an argument."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIndeed. And how is that support for 'Obama's or (or any other politician's or internet blogger's) concept of redistribution)'?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI agree CP has not made that explicit argument. It was, however, the argument that first brought up the concept of Jubilee and associated laws and is the foundational argument against redistributing wealth today; Jesse, Joel, Mountain Man and some others have all made explicit arguments at one point or another about such redistribution being immoral and others (CP included) have made implicitly moral arguments against "forced" redistribution from those who have "earned it" to those who "haven't earned it."
But we're definitely sitting in the middle of a big hot mess of an argument.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI agree CP has not made that explicit argument. It was, however, the argument that first brought up the concept of Jubilee and associated laws and is the foundational argument against redistributing wealth today; Jesse, Joel, Mountain Man and some others have all made explicit arguments at one point or another about such redistribution being immoral and others (CP included) have made implicitly moral arguments against "forced" redistribution from those who have "earned it" to those who "haven't earned it."
But we're definitely sitting in the middle of a big hot mess of an argument.
You're REALLY misrepresenting my position on this, and it's not the first time. If you would like to know my position on this, PLEASE feel free to ask.
Your loving pal,
CPThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, when Pappie presented Jubilee as a good example of FORCED redistribution, it's MY fault for not having read some OTHER thread?
Wow...... this is your way of digging out?
We agree that Jubilee is a BAD example of FORCED redistribution? Cool!!!!!
We agree that Jubilee is a bad example of forced redistribution if we agree that taxation is a bad example of forced redistribution, sure! Just sign on the dotted line"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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But we're definitely sitting in the middle of a big hot mess of an argument.Originally posted by Paprika View PostThese tend to be the most fun.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostIt's your fault for not reading the other thread when you were plainly told that most all of the necessary details pertaining to this resurrection of the topic was on that thread, yes. You didn't want to spend the time reading and wanted folks to go through the argument all again -- or "just the scripture," so you could have the argument without bothering with the background.
We agree that Jubilee is a bad example of forced redistribution if
we agree that taxation is a bad example of forced redistribution, sure! Just sign on the dotted lineThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostDear sweet Sam.....
You're REALLY misrepresenting my position on this, and it's not the first time. If you would like to know my position on this, PLEASE feel free to ask.
Your loving pal,
CP
Dear darling Cow Poke,
I apologize for REALLY misrepresenting your position and sincerely wish to express that it is not my intention to do so. I have, as far as I can tell, faithfully represented arguments you've made here and in the past regarding the morality of government "taking" from one person in order to provide economic security to another, even in the case that the latter has in no way earned the supplemental income. I would like to know what your actual position on this matter is; if you could provide that position with a reasonable amount of detail, I would be exquisitely grateful, as it will greatly aid my desire to avoid misrepresenting you in the future.
Your lovable chum,
Sam"I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI am quite thankful that there are others like yourself who equally enjoy them.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostDear darling Cow Poke,
I apologize for REALLY misrepresenting your position and sincerely wish to express that it is not my intention to do so. I have, as far as I can tell, faithfully represented arguments you've made here and in the past regarding the morality of government "taking" from one person in order to provide economic security to another, even in the case that the latter has in no way earned the supplemental income. I would like to know what your actual position on this matter is; if you could provide that position with a reasonable amount of detail, I would be exquisitely grateful, as it will greatly aid my desire to avoid misrepresenting you in the future.
Your lovable chum,
Sam
You're still missing it, my good friend and buddy.
While I think that the IDEAL model is relief from the Church, I realize that's increasingly impractical to impossible.
When government levies taxes to provide for the common defense of the union, I'm obviously not opposed to that.
NOR am I opposed to the government taxing individuals to provide for the common infrastructure, and relief of the poor.
Now, could you please provide ANY post of mine that indicates I am against ANY taxation OR relief of the poor?
Thanking you ever so kindly,
I remain, sincerely yours.
CP
PS -- if I may say, I suspect there's quite a bit of assumin' goin' on on your part about what, exactly, I believe.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostUm.....
You're still missing it, my good friend and buddy.
While I think that the IDEAL model is relief from the Church, I realize that's increasingly impractical to impossible.
When government levies taxes to provide for the common defense of the union, I'm obviously not opposed to that.
NOR am I opposed to the government taxing individuals to provide for the common infrastructure, and relief of the poor.
Now, could you please provide ANY post of mine that indicates I am against ANY taxation OR relief of the poor?
Thanking you ever so kindly,
I remain, sincerely yours.
CP
PS -- if I may say, I suspect there's quite a bit of assumin' goin' on on your part about what, exactly, I believe.
I suspect that's the case both ways, as you've already demonstrated on this thread — but that's the nature of debate forums, where we take others' posts at "face value," meaning from our pre-existing framework.
I've never argued that you're against ANY taxation, nor implied such. You have, however, made a clear distinction between volunteering to give more for social welfare and "the government forcing someone against their will" to do so. That's a moral argument, implying that such "forced giving" is illegitimate or wrong.
If you don't believe that "forced giving" for social welfare is necessarily wrong then you've got to explain your position in light of your having used that in argument. If the government sets a minimum wage, is that forcing someone to provide for another's welfare against his will? If the government levies a wealth tax to fund TANF or SNAP, is that forcing someone against his will to provide for another? Is such force immoral or illegitimate?
Your arguments seem to have been, for a very long time, been on the side of the argument that holds that such policies are, at least in a sense, immoral and that they illustrated corruption in politicians. If this is not the case, I would appreciate something much more detailed than the above, which is somewhat vague."I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"
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