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Impending Minimum Wage hike causing restaurants to close

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  • #16
    they don't even pay good substitute teacher's 15/hr in most places. I don't think flipping burgers is worth 15/hr. It just isn't. In some places the pay of Mcd's is 8.50 /hr but the 1/4 lb large size meal is 9.70. Ugh. Sorry. I can get Really good, authentic American Chinese food (well I can't tolerate it physically anymore, but it taste's GREAT!!!!) for twice that and it feeds 5 people with leftovers!!! And I can order it for dinner from Across the street.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      Is this the bar that's being set? If the minimum wage law is in effect for, say, half a year, should we be looking for 80% of full-service respondents to have fired employees, closed a location or the entire business, or declared bankruptcy? What part of your position would you change if this wasn't at least close to the case?

      To the OP, the liberals here weren't arguing that no business would close ever, even over wage issues. What was argued, if memory serves, is that minimum wage increases in aggregate do not appear to lower employment:

      Source: Proposal to Strengthen Minimum Wage Would Help Low-Wage Workers, With Little Impact on Employment. Bernstein & Parrot. CPBB.org. 2014.01.07

      In a review of over 60 studies that look for statistical linkages between minimum-wage increases and job losses, economist John Schmitt reports that the most accurately measured results cluster around zero: some studies find that raising the minimum wage has a small negative effect on employment, a smaller number find that it has a small positive effect, and most find no significant effect.[10] “The weight of the evidence points to little or no employment response to modest increases in the minimum wage,” Schmitt concludes.

      It is important to stress that some high quality research finds job losses and reduced hours for affected workers. In other words, there are some cases where employers do “buy less” labor when its price goes up. But even in these studies, the impacts are small enough so that the net result for the vast majority of low-wage workers is a net gain in earnings. That is, there would be relatively few job losses compared to the number of workers who would remain at work with higher wages, and some workers whose hours were reduced would still see increases in their weekly earnings. As economist Arin Dube recently stated, “[t]he academic disagreements are over no job losses or small job losses for highly impacted groups.”[11]

      © Copyright Original Source



      Anecdotal evidence of some stores closing because of increased labor costs will definitely come up now and again. Empirically, however, these appear to be a drop in the ocean and the benefits of increasing the minimum wage vastly outweigh the losses.

      --Sam
      The employment of people are for the most part not affected by wage floors. Most people who were judged as being poor prospects as employees before wage floor hikes are still judged poor prospective employees after. Most people who were judged to be good prospects even after wage floor hikes are still considered good prospects. The rest of people who want jobs could be thought of as a thin silver in the market for employment.

      Sam, you write well, but you don't think thoroughly. It's scarcely surprising that measures of employment or unemployment would show little change considering the small number of people who are really affected. The question we should be considering is, "Do wage floors more good than bad?" We do have to consider the bad side, because every decision the government makes has a price.

      I think wage floors do more bad than good. You do not really consider the welfare of employees who are barely getting along before wage floor hikes. For one thing, governments are too expensive anyway (I don't mean expensive in terms of dollars.)
      Last edited by Truthseeker; 03-13-2015, 05:49 PM.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
        they don't even pay good substitute teacher's 15/hr in most places. I don't think flipping burgers is worth 15/hr. It just isn't. In some places the pay of Mcd's is 8.50 /hr but the 1/4 lb large size meal is 9.70. Ugh. Sorry. I can get Really good, authentic American Chinese food (well I can't tolerate it physically anymore, but it taste's GREAT!!!!) for twice that and it feeds 5 people with leftovers!!! And I can order it for dinner from Across the street.
        I could certainly get behind an argument that cost of service and value of service are out of proportion.
        I'm not here anymore.

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        • #19
          if people don't want to pay more so that the restaurant workers can make a living,

          then those people should stay home and cook their own meals and clean their own dishes.
          To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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          • #20
            I don't think much of this will matter in the future. Most of these jobs can and will be handled by robots. I don't think many people understand the revolution that is about to happen where robotics are concerned. They are becoming easier and cheaper to produce as an alternative to human tasks in most areas. Make the minimum wage 100 an hour. It won't matter. Businesses will look at what is most cost effective. And frankly, a robot is cheaper than a greedy human. What is my point? Get your children to take classes in robotics. They will be in high demand soon.
            Last edited by Jesse; 03-14-2015, 08:45 AM.
            "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Jesse View Post
              Get your children to take classes in robotics. They will be in high demand soon.
              Preparation for social revolution and upheaval would be a better idea, as it'll be a toss-up whether the future masses of unemployed can be pacified with panem et circenses.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                Preparation for social revolution and upheaval would be a better idea, as it'll be a toss-up whether the future masses of unemployed can be pacified with panem et circenses.
                Your point leads into very uncomfortable ponderings. Most people will not be happy with the outcome. Skynet will be your new boss.
                "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Well, they were wrong.
                  Of course they were wrong. Not once in the history of this nation has raising the minimum wage led to economic prosperity, and it defies all logic and common sense to think that it will. Of course we're talking about the same mindset that said that giving the government greater control of our healthcare industry would lead to decreased costs and increased quality of services, so logic and common sense really don't apply.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Gas prices are not comparable to food prices. For the most part, gas prices are flat across an area, so the option to go elsewhere isn't as realistic as it is for a food establishment.
                    Also, if restaurants are pricing themselves out of my comfort zone, I can pack a lunch at home, and cut way back on "eating out". I cannot, however, make my own gasoline -- and I still need to get to work to earn money.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                      I could certainly get behind an argument that cost of service and value of service are out of proportion.
                      People vote with their feet - Chick-Fil-A seems to have figured out this cost/value thing, as you can see by the long lines around the drive-thru and the full parking lots compared to nearby restaurants which almost universally charge less and pay their employees less.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I'm loving this thread. The imaginary evidence, about the thing that hasn't happened yet, totally proves that the crazies were right all along. We've reached a new kind of zen with this one.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          I'm loving this thread. The imaginary evidence, about the thing that hasn't happened yet, totally proves that the crazies were right all along. We've reached a new kind of zen with this one.
                          Oh, the sweet Iron E ---- YOU calling others "crazies".
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Oh, the sweet Iron E ---- YOU calling others "crazies".
                            Your rogue tech order has been sent and is due to arrive in 2 to 4 business days


                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dimlight View Post
                              I'm loving this thread. The imaginary evidence, about the thing that hasn't happened yet, totally proves that the crazies were right all along. We've reached a new kind of zen with this one.
                              Yes, because employers saying that they will not be able to remain profitable if the minimum wage is increased is "imaginary evidence".

                              Even the Conressional Budget Office says that raising the minimum leads to job loss.

                              Source: USA Today

                              CBO examined the budget impacts of raising the minimum wage to $9 and $10.10. The report concluded that a $9 increase would lift 300,000 workers above the poverty line, but cost 100,000 new jobs as employers are expected to reduce workforces to make up for higher wages. A $10.10 increase would lift 900,000 workers above the poverty line, but cost 500,000 jobs.

                              http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...-jobs/5582779/

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                People vote with their feet - Chick-Fil-A seems to have figured out this cost/value thing, as you can see by the long lines around the drive-thru and the full parking lots compared to nearby restaurants which almost universally charge less and pay their employees less.
                                There's also In-N-Out in California, that follows the same general rule too. They are often pretty packed, compared to their competition down the street.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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