Originally posted by Mountain Man
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Originally posted by Sam View PostHow do you define debt forgiveness if not a redistribution of wealth? How does one define the mandate to leave portions of a harvest for the poor, if this doesn't constitute a redistribution of wealth?
Sorry, Sam, but you simply can't use scripture to justify modern liberal notions of "wealth redistribution", no matter how much you wish you could.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostA lie: you quoted entirely out of context.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostWhat do you see as the difference? (between the "selfish modern" notion and the other notion(s) of individualistic ownership)
It's a long history, involving areas such as ethics, philosophy, economics, psychology, and sociology, and requires the deconstruction of much of what is integral to many common types of worldviews, including my own and I am woefully underequipped to expound on it. However, if you insist, I'll do my best (we start with Homer).
On another note, I would not now prefer to use the word 'selfish' because of the pejorative it connotes. 'Self-centered' would be slightly better but I know of no good way to convey in a concise manner how radically individualistic the notions and the worldview(s) they spring from are.
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Originally posted by Sam View PostI don't think anyone can argue that Levitical or Deuteronomical commands were to be taken as voluntary.
Israel got in trouble more than a few times for failing to adhere to YHWH's commands,
if memory serves,
and the State did have power of enforcement.
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Originally posted by Paprika View Post
I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post"Redistribution of wealth", as used in political terms, implies a third party directing or requiring or mandating the "redistribution".
To try to equate that with the VOLUNTARY sharing of funds or property is disingenuous.
If I decide to forgive a debt somebody owes me to honor a biblical principle, it is NOT the same as somebody forcing me to give up something I own.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostNot only did I represent you correctly, but I quoted you word for word in order to ensure I represented you correctly.
And, yes what you're promoting is communism.
No. You really are hung up on communism, aren't you?
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Originally posted by Paprika View Post
No.
I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.
Try to represent me correctly, if that is at all possible.
And, yes what you're promoting is communism. You can laugh and smirk and get as snarky as you want, but that's where your arguments ultimately lead.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post"Collectivist view of property" is the textbook definition of communism.
No.
But it doesn't matter because you're arguing against yourself now. First you claimed that the ancient Jews would have had trouble comprehending our "individualistic modern notions of ownership,"
I said that ancient Jews would have trouble comprehending "such selfish individualistic modern notions of ownership", not that they couldn't comprehend any individualistic notion of ownership.
Try to represent me correctly, if that is at all possible.
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"Redistribution of wealth", as used in political terms, implies a third party directing or requiring or mandating the "redistribution".
To try to equate that with the VOLUNTARY sharing of funds or property is disingenuous.
If I decide to forgive a debt somebody owes me to honor a biblical principle, it is NOT the same as somebody forcing me to give up something I own.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post"Collectivist view of property" is the textbook definition of communism.
But it doesn't matter because you're arguing against yourself now. First you claimed that the ancient Jews would have had trouble comprehending our "individualistic modern notions of ownership," but now you say there was space in their worldview for the concept of "individual ownership".
The bottom line, of course, is that nowhere in scripture is it commanded or implied that we are to "redistribute" a person's wealth against their will.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostWhy are you so hung up about communism? A collectivist view of property isn't necessarily communist. Neither, of course, does a communal sense of some property necessarily imply that there is no space for individual ownership at all, just as collectivism doesn't imply that no sense of the individual existed.
But it doesn't matter because you're arguing against yourself now. First you claimed that the ancient Jews would have had trouble comprehending our "individualistic modern notions of ownership," but now you say there was space in their worldview for the concept of "individual ownership".
The bottom line, of course, is that nowhere in scripture is it commanded or implied that we are to "redistribute" a person's wealth against their will.Last edited by Mountain Man; 03-26-2015, 12:11 AM.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThey were collectivist in their view of self, not property. The ancients weren't communists and clearly understood bounderies like personal ownership.
But nice try on attempting to sound like a sociologist by using terms that I'm not entirely sure you understand.
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Originally posted by Dimbulb View PostMy favorite part of their excuses are where they spend the first section of the article pointing out that they accurately repeated the statements of others and that therefore they didn't get it wrong, regardless of the truth of those statements.
Follow the link for the rest.
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