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  • #61
    Originally posted by fm93 View Post
    Oops, missed this earlier.


    I think this has become an issue of semantics. I always thought the context of Matthew 5 was that the Pharisees thought they could still be righteous if they merely fantasized about committing adultery instead of actually doing it, and Jesus corrected them by saying that they were not. This same principle applies here.


    And I agree with all this. But I know some young men who swear that they would never actually rape a woman, but they do engage in intimidation and sexual harassment towards women when those women clearly don't want it. And it seems that a fair point to make to them would be "Even though you aren't actually raping anyone, acting in such ways towards women does not make you any more righteous."



    In this article about universalism and particularism, Craig writes:

    Those of us who have unbelieving family and friends no doubt often feel that if they will not freely give their lives to Christ, it would be worth it if God would simply overpower their wills and save them in spite of themselves; do doubt, too, we feel that if we had not freely yielded our lives to God, then we wish that God would have overpowered our wills and saved us anyway. But as strong as such feelings are, they do not change the fact that such an action on God's part amounts to salvation by divine rape. For God to subvert the will of someone who chooses to reject His grace would be to violate their personhood, and that God necessarily will not do.


    I also believe I've heard him use that phrase in his public debates before, although I'm not sure in which ones.
    Yeah that might be going a bit far too. I think he is talking about lack of free will, which is not rape. I am not sure if he is using that as just a purposeful exaggeration (hyperbole) for analogical purposes. or really means it is a form of "rape" - if the latter, then I disagree with him.

    There are actually some groups that think that God physically raped Mary though, and I thought you might be referring to something like that.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by fm93 View Post
      That's the same article. The Times changed it after they received criticism for the opening. It originally opened with this:

      She made a mean beef stroganoff, followed her husband from job to job, and took eight years off from work to raise three children. “The world’s best mom,” her son Matthew said.

      But Yvonne Brill, who died on Wednesday at 88 in Princeton, N.J., was also a brilliant rocket scientist, who in the early 1970s invented a propulsion system to help keep communications satellites from slipping out of their orbits.


      It was her work in science that made her famous enough to warrant that obituary in the Times in the first place; consequently, it seems odd that they would say she was "also" a rocket scientist while first emphasizing her family life.
      Well, considering most people have no clue who she was... I would think a personal note from her son would be apropos.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #63
        I would prefer my obituary to be more focused on my family life than on my professional life.

        That's a bit off-topic, but whatever.
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Yeah that might be going a bit far too. I think he is talking about lack of free will, which is not rape. I am not sure if he is using that as just a purposeful exaggeration (hyperbole) for analogical purposes. or really means it is a form of "rape" - if the latter, then I disagree with him.

          There are actually some groups that think that God physically raped Mary though, and I thought you might be referring to something like that.
          Okay, now I really am confused. I thought it was clear that by "divine rape," Craig was using deliberate exaggeration for analogical purposes. I thought it was also clear that by "psychological rape," Goshen College was using deliberate exaggeration for analogical purposes.


          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Well, considering most people have no clue who she was... I would think a personal note from her son would be apropos.
          That's...not the point.


          Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
          I would prefer my obituary to be more focused on my family life than on my professional life.

          That's a bit off-topic, but whatever.
          Perfectly fine. But the fact that the Times eventually changed it after receiving criticism indicates that Brill gave them no notice that she specifically wanted a section primarily about her family life first. So the author chose to write it that way out of his own accord. Yet as we see from obituaries of famous men, family life is generally not emphasized first if that's not what the person in question was known for.
          Last edited by fm93; 03-12-2015, 12:32 PM.
          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by fm93 View Post
            Okay, now I really am confused. I thought it was clear that by "divine rape," Craig was using deliberate exaggeration for analogical purposes. I thought it was also clear that by "psychological rape," Goshen College was using deliberate exaggeration for analogical purposes.
            except I don't think they were purposefully exaggerating for analogical purposes. They actually meant it, from what I have read.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by fm93 View Post
              Wow.
              Yep wow indeed. You haven't even bothered to do a hint of research on the topic and decided to rant about something you know nothing about. Funny thing is that it really isn't that hard to find obituaries of scientist, as I'll show below.

              Einstein merely constituted a hypothetical example. It needn't be him in particular. The point is that it's highly unlikely an obituary writer would ever think it necessary to include that sort of reference to someone's domestic life at all, especially not in the very opening of the obituary, if that someone was primarily known for being a prominent male scientist. The way that obit is written, one would think that Yvonne Brill was primarily a homemaker who just happened to do science in her spare time. And again, you know an obituary for a prominent male scientist, even one who said he wanted to also be remembered for his family life, would virtually never be written in that way (aka a manner that made his scientific career seem like an afterthought despite the fact that that's what he was primarily known for).
              It was a cherry picked example because it helped your buddies to scream about their point because they don't care about facts. See, it isn't that hard to find the obituaries of figures in science that have died. The Telegraph has a list here that they maintain that contains entries for both male and female scientist. Funny thing is, it doesn't take very long reading though them to see how your claims are total nonsense. Some of the men have quite a few details about their personal lives. Carl Djerassi's obituary entry contains quite a few details about his personal life while Eugenie Clark's obituary entry contains quite a few less details about her personal life. Bottom line is your feminist buddies cherry picked an example because they wanted to make an example of somebody and didn't bother to dig further. I read though quite a few of the entries myself and found them to vary greatly because humans are not borg and have variations on their lives. Einstein's personal life wasn't the best, so why would an obituary entry contain many personal details about him? Try doing a bit of research before you decided to back up a movement. It would save you a lot of trouble before you say silly things.

              *I* am not obsessed with this. But if anything, it seems that you may almost be obsessed with trying to not see certain problematic standards even when they do clearly exist.
              And yet, every thread that has a thing to do with sexism or racism, you come running in, before you think, to say something that doesn't make a lick of sense. Tell me, did you even bother to go and read obituary entries, on scientist, before you spoke? I did and that is why I know those claims are nonsense.
              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 03-12-2015, 09:45 PM.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Nice entry. She sounded like a great lady, to know. Too bad some people want to hijack these sort of entries to rant about their pet topic.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                  That's the same article. The Times changed it after they received criticism for the opening. It originally opened with this:

                  She made a mean beef stroganoff, followed her husband from job to job, and took eight years off from work to raise three children. “The world’s best mom,” her son Matthew said.

                  But Yvonne Brill, who died on Wednesday at 88 in Princeton, N.J., was also a brilliant rocket scientist, who in the early 1970s invented a propulsion system to help keep communications satellites from slipping out of their orbits.


                  It was her work in science that made her famous enough to warrant that obituary in the Times in the first place; consequently, it seems odd that they would say she was "also" a rocket scientist while first emphasizing her family life.
                  Did you bother to read the article FM, before you decided to rant? Here is the part in question:

                  ...
                  Her personal and professional balancing act also won notice. In 1980, Harper’s Bazaar magazine and the DeBeers Corporation gave her their Diamond Superwoman award for returning to a successful career after starting a family.
                  ...

                  Or

                  ...
                  They moved to Connecticut in 1952 when Mr. Brill got a job there. She followed him again when he later got a job in New Jersey. She did not mind the moves, her son Matthew said. She would say, “Good husbands are harder to find than good jobs.”
                  ...

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/sc...ies-at-88.html

                  Perhaps they emphasized her family life because she put her family life first? Again, did you bother to read the entire article before you ranted?
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    Nice entry. She sounded like a great lady, to know. Too bad some people want to hijack these sort of entries to rant about their pet topic.
                    Whiners gotta have something to whine about.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                      I thought it was also clear that by "psychological rape," Goshen College was using deliberate exaggeration for analogical purposes.
                      As always, the moderate liberals covers for the extremists: "That's not what they really mean!"

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                        Whiners gotta have something to whine about.
                        zactly.

                        fm93 must live a truly miserable life, seeing injustice, victimization, and bigotry everywhere.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          except I don't think they were purposefully exaggerating for analogical purposes. They actually meant it, from what I have read.
                          What do you see that suggests they actually meant it?


                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Yep wow indeed. You haven't even bothered to do a hint of research on the topic and decided to rant about something you know nothing about. Funny thing is that it really isn't that hard to find obituaries of scientist, as I'll show below.



                          It was a cherry picked example because it helped your buddies to scream about their point because they don't care about facts. See, it isn't that hard to find the obituaries of figures in science that have died. The Telegraph has a list here that they maintain that contains entries for both male and female scientist. Funny thing is, it doesn't take very long reading though them to see how your claims are total nonsense. Some of the men have quite a few details about their personal lives. Carl Djerassi's obituary entry contains quite a few details about his personal life while Eugenie Clark's obituary entry contains quite a few less details about her personal life. Bottom line is your feminist buddies cherry picked an example because they wanted to make an example of somebody and didn't bother to dig further. I read though quite a few of the entries myself and found them to vary greatly because humans are not borg and have variations on their lives. Einstein's personal life wasn't the best, so why would an obituary entry contain many personal details about him? Try doing a bit of research before you decided to back up a movement. It would save you a lot of trouble before you say silly things.



                          And yet, every thread that has a thing to do with sexism or racism, you come running in, before you think, to say something that doesn't make a lick of sense. Tell me, did you even bother to go and read obituary entries, on scientist, before you spoke? I did and that is why I know those claims are nonsense.
                          :snore:

                          You'll notice that Djerassi's obituary doesn't open with something that makes his scientific career seem like an afterthought, the way Brill's did. To the contrary, it specifically tells the reader of his career accomplishments. As for Clark's obituary, the point isn't merely the presence or lack of mentions of family life. The point is that if Yvonne Brill had been a man, and everything else about her life was the same, the obituary in all likelihood wouldn't have opened in that way. Not all women scientists have an obituary that opens with something that makes the scientific career that she's famous for seem like an afterthought. But if any scientist has an obituary that opens with something that makes the scientific career seem like an afterthought, that scientist was probably a woman. I cannot find such an obituary for a famous man.

                          Also, regarding a later post...it's true that Brill did value her family greatly, but again, that's NOT what made her famous. It's perfectly fine--fitting, even--if an obituary includes a mention of that, but it shouldn't open by emphasizing that aspect over her scientific career when the scientific career is specifically what made her famous. Furthermore, there were certainly male scientists who placed great value on their families, but as I said, I've yet to find an obituary that opens by making a male scientist seem primarily like a homemaker and mentions the scientific career almost as a footnote. That's why I keep saying that there appears to be an unequal standard.
                          Last edited by fm93; 03-13-2015, 08:06 AM.
                          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            Whiners gotta have something to whine about.
                            You yourself sound like you're whining.


                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            zactly.

                            fm93 must live a truly miserable life, seeing injustice, victimization, and bigotry everywhere.
                            Not at all. I only see those in a few areas in which they very clearly seem to exist.

                            Although I do wonder if folks like yourself, on the other hand, live truly miserable lives, thinking gays and liberals and Muslims and "the PC police" are out to get you or destroy America all the time.




                            I can see it now:

                            *Oklahoma frat chants "We'll never let a nigger in SAE. We'll never let a nigger in SAE! You can hang him from a tree, but he'll never sign with me!"
                            *Chelsea fans prevent black man from boarding train, chant "We're racist, we're racist, and that's the way we like it, we like it, we like it."

                            fm93: Wow. I can't believe people can still be so blatantly racist.

                            lilpixieofterror: Tell me, did you even watch the videos before deciding to rant about your pet topic? Of course not, because you don't bother to do a hint of research. You always see the worst in everything and assign evil motives to people. Tell me, did you ever think that maybe the Oklahoma frat boys were just using a word from their favorite rap songs by black people (because apparently black rappers would happily rap about being hung from trees)? Or that the soccer fans were shoving him out playfully the way kids on the playground do, and they were saying they like to race? Funny thing is, I thought of those explanations instantly. Do you ever think before you speak?

                            seer: What, I don't see anything wrong with this. Do you? If anything, those commie fascists are hating freedom again. No man should be forced to serve another man by letting him board a train.

                            Sparko: fm93 must live a truly miserable life, seeing injustice, victimization and bigotry in a few innocent frat parties and train stations.

                            Mountain Man: Liberalism 101: pretend that racism still exists and is a problem.
                            Last edited by fm93; 03-13-2015, 08:53 AM.
                            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                              What do you see that suggests they actually meant it?
                              You will have to do a little digging in the original linked article about it. The Goshen college page has since been removed (which suggests that they got feedback telling them they had gone too far) - but there is a cached image of the page linked somewhere in the article. Also the original page was named "What men can do to prevent rape" and it listed this non-physical stuff as the same as actual rape. So it seems pretty clear that they actually meant that staring at a woman is rape. Otherwise they would have just left it out, or had an article about sexual harassment, which is now what is on the Goshen college page "Sexual Assault, Harassment; Consent" that takes the place of the original page. They now call it "sexual misconduct and harassment" and if you actually use touch (which you would have to do in real rape) it is called "Sexual Assault"
                              Last edited by Sparko; 03-13-2015, 08:50 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by fm93 View Post

                                That's...not the point.
                                That's COMPLETELY the point! And the label "obituary" is a misnomer. It is a news report, not an obituary. And as an aside, I find it rather disgusting that listing her accomplishments as a mother and wife before professional endeavors is something less than honorable.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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