No such thing as a USFG conspiracy--Lil P.

[Sparko]

I am the first to use "conspiracy" in this thread. Hence I have the authority to decide what the definition is. I believe this is a good one: A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime [I prefer the phrase evil act] at some time in the future. Note, nothing about secrecy or being out in the open. For example, a Presidential candidate proposes to jack up the income tax bracket on the rich from 50% to 99%. People vote for him. Whether he wins or not, that's a conspiracy if the tax rate at such a lofty level is evil.

Incidentally, Sparko and others should have asked me to specify what I mean by conspiracy first.

To be sure, for a conspiracy to succeed, in most cases, secrecy/deception/brain washing is necessary. An example is calling the Indian concentration camps "reservations."

I hope to respond to some of the posts here before today runs out.

LOL, so you can decide what the definition of a word is on a case by case basis? Right. There goes language.

[JohnnyP]

Icicles would not have mattered if the equipment was designed to operate in such conditions. I was involved in test-firing a STANDARD Missile rocket motor (which used the exact same O-ring material) in similar conditions, and it failed in the same way.

Yep exactly.

[Sparko]

I used to work at a place that made cleaners and degreasers and Morton-Thiokol was one of our customers. Small world.


...or maybe it was all part of the big conspiracy!

[Truthseeker]

I've come up with a conspiracy theory that will cause Lil Pixie to call me a tin-foil-hat-wearing nut! The theory is that the NSA is spying on the whole world! Oh, oh, I deserve to be put away in an asylum for the insane, do I not?

Second, they really were not like concentration camps similar to the Nazi ones. They were not the best places to be, but they were not designed to kill people by the millions either.

Some historians distinguish between concentration camps and extermination camps. The Nazis operated their camps as concentration camps since about mid 1933 until 1939 when the Nazi mass extermination program started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp I will concede that the USFG didn't have extermination camps for Indians, but the Indians did suffer a great number of horrible deaths and rapes. See also Nazi concentration camps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps and concentration camps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concent...entration_camp

These efforts were mostly focused on Indian groups that didn't go along with the whole forced relocation thing.

Oh, that made things all right. Oh how stupid of me.

Finally, I never ever said that the government has never ever committed any act of conspiracy in its entire existence. J Eager Hoover had quite a few secret files on quite a few groups and famous people in the 1950's and 60's.

I am not sure, but I guess you have in mind that Hoover told people to gather that stuff. I'm not sure those people knew why Hoover wanted the stuff . . . If not, not really conspiracy.

They also took an effort to bring down the KKK of the era. Could that be counted as a government conspiracy? Of course, here is the thing though, there is actual evidence to back up such things actually happening because the government is actually pretty bad at keeping secrets for very long.

I'm not sure, but perhaps you need to clarify what you mean by "they."

How much evidence has surfaced that JFK was killed by anybody else, by a lone gunman? None.

I guess you had not followed my precrash thread on the JFK killing.

How much evidence has come up that 9/11 was an inside job? None. See the problems here yet?

Maybe what we have here is a case of see no evil. Actually, to be fair to you, I should state that I have done nothing more than just read a bit here and another there about 9/11. I did see allegations by architects and engineers that the towers must have been demolished by pre-planted explosives, based on how swiftly the towers collapsed (free-fall like).

[Truthseeker]

LOL, so you can decide what the definition of a word is on a case by case basis? Right. There goes language.

Sparko, you could have proposed an alternative definition and explained why it is better (e.g., it helps better understanding or is more useful) instead of scoffing.

[Truthseeker]

I used to work at a place that made cleaners and degreasers and Morton-Thiokol was one of our customers. Small world.


...or maybe it was all part of the big conspiracy!

Exactly what was part? A world conspiring against itself? You're weird.

[Truthseeker]

Are you seriously saying that most people, within the federal government, are rather evil

quick responses. No.

and our government is worse for the world then most other governments or even companies are?

You seem rather oblivious of what is going on. Maybe you don't know what neoconservatives are and what they want.

Cigarette companies knew, years before it was announced that their products were responsible for cancer so why didn't they come forward and admit the truth and tried to cover it up? Lots of money was on the line, so naturally we are going to see some rather evil things done in the name of the almighty dollar. Perhaps the reality is that it isn't as easy as 'good' or 'evil'? Could it be possible that the government is neither good nor evil, but may have done good and evil things as well as have people within it that might use it to do good or evil things?

Wow, maybe you are willing to entertain the notion of corporate capitalism (Big Food, Big Pharma, Big Military Gear, etc.) after all.

And are you seriously saying they killed him?

Not mossad alone.

Israel wasn't the power house it is today back in JFK's time Auggie.

Wow, you really don't understand the world.

Also, was Johnson anymore pro Israel and did they know or did he tell them that he would support them?

Oh, some book writers think so. Look, why don't you examine LBJ's record regarding Israel for yourself? And please do a more careful and thorough job.

[lilpixieofterror]

I am the first to use "conspiracy" in this thread. Hence I have the authority to decide what the definition is. I believe this is a good one: A conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime [I prefer the phrase evil act] at some time in the future. Note, nothing about secrecy or being out in the open. For example, a Presidential candidate proposes to jack up the income tax bracket on the rich from 50% to 99%. People vote for him. Whether he wins or not, that's a conspiracy if the tax rate at such a lofty level is evil.

So you can call it whatever you want to suit your purposes. BTW I really doubt that a presidential candidate would make such a promise or that congress would pass such a bill. Many of them are quite rich, so why would they pass such a bill? I think the answer is pretty obvious, they don't.

Incidentally, Sparko and others should have asked me to specify what I mean by conspiracy first.

It appears to be whatever you want it to be, per your insane definitions.

To be sure, for a conspiracy to succeed, in most cases, secrecy/deception/brain washing is necessary. An example is calling the Indian concentration camps "reservations."

And yet, they have some pretty large pieces of land, have quite a few schools, and many of them are making barrels full of money, that is (of course) totally tax free. The reality is Auggie that the federal government's policy was more towards re-education of the 'ignorant savages' (as they would have called them in that era) vs exterminating them.

I hope to respond to some of the posts here before today runs out.

Looks like your wish came true.

[lilpixieofterror]

I've come up with a conspiracy theory that will cause Lil Pixie to call me a tin-foil-hat-wearing nut! The theory is that the NSA is spying on the whole world! Oh, oh, I deserve to be put away in an asylum for the insane, do I not?

And I really doubt the NSA could spy on the entire world Auggie. I found that the internet carries 1,826 Petabytes of information, per day, according to some sources. Do you have any idea how much information that is? There is no way that the NSA would be capable of shifting though that much data, daily, without far more computing power and resources then even the US federal government has available. They might be able to pull off 1% of that data, but even then, that is still 18 Petabytes of information (far more then then largest commercial available hard drives available today). More then likely, somebody is exaggerating capacity somewhere and it really makes perfect sense why they would do that.

Some historians distinguish between concentration camps and extermination camps. The Nazis operated their camps as concentration camps since about mid 1933 until 1939 when the Nazi mass extermination program started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp I will concede that the USFG didn't have extermination camps for Indians, but the Indians did suffer a great number of horrible deaths and rapes. See also Nazi concentration camps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps and concentration camps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concent...entration_camp

And those were just storage places to the Nazi's there Auggie until their 'answer to the Jewish problem' came up (which was the extermination). Can you prove that the US Federal government had plans to exterminate the American Indians that went along with their plans? No because the evidence points out they were more interested in their land and in only dealing with those that didn't go along with their plans then mass exterminations. Is that still a pretty messed up thing to do? Oh yeah it is quite messed up, but there's a difference between being jerks and being evil rulers bent on world conquest.

Oh, that made things all right. Oh how stupid of me.

Never said that. You might want to try some basic reading comprehension at some point.

I am not sure, but I guess you have in mind that Hoover told people to gather that stuff. I'm not sure those people knew why Hoover wanted the stuff . . . If not, not really conspiracy.

So plotting to bring down an organization isn't a conspiracy. Right.... I forgot that you redefine terms to mean whatever you want them to mean, my mistake.

I'm not sure, but perhaps you need to clarify what you mean by "they."I guess you had not followed my precrash thread on the JFK killing.

That's because it is conspiracy theory nonsense Auggie. Isn't it interesting how all of these conspiracy theories keep coming up because a 'new witnesses' comes forward, which of course, they get some fame, money, etc from it. Gosh, isn't that great? You can become temporary famous and even make a few dollars from coming forward with 'new evidence' of this massive conspiracy. And nothing there seems odd to you at all? Ok...

Maybe what we have here is a case of see no evil. Actually, to be fair to you, I should state that I have done nothing more than just read a bit here and another there about 9/11. I did see allegations by architects and engineers that the towers must have been demolished by pre-planted explosives, based on how swiftly the towers collapsed (free-fall like).

Funny how the engineers and architects that actually built and designed the World Trade Center call such conspiracy theories nonsense and most conspiracy theorist don't seem to know that it takes a lot of planning and a lot of time to implode a building. It takes weeks of computer calculations and modeling to figure out how to implode a structure. Do you really think that a precise science, that requires precise calculations and variables, could calculate for the unknown variable of a plane striking a building? Again, there's a reason conspiracy theories, of this size are total and complete crap. The federal government is horrible at keeping secrets as history has shown and yet... nothing has yet to come forth to show that 9/11 was an inside job? Right...

[lilpixieofterror]

quick responses. No.

And yet, you're the one saying it is 'evil'. What makes it evil auggie or is the reality far harder to distinguish then simply 'good' or 'evil'? Could the US government be neither good nor evil, but is determined by those who run it?

You seem rather oblivious of what is going on. Maybe you don't know what neoconservatives are and what they want.

I know just what is going on, you'll believe crazy conspiracy theories that have no evidence to support them while ignoring actual ones that actually do cause problems for us.

Wow, maybe you are willing to entertain the notion of corporate capitalism (Big Food, Big Pharma, Big Military Gear, etc.) after all.

The idea of 'follow the money' works rather well in situations dealing with government corruption and even outright conspiracies. Although these ones are nothing nearly as exciting as the ones that 9/11 was an 'inside job' or that kind of stuff, but they do still exist. Would I put it past corporations using their influence to get the government to do things? No, but much of the stuff you say they do is well... nonsense. Your good doctor friend kills children with his 'vaccinations are bad for your' nonsense. If that isn't outright evil, I don't know what is.

Not mossad alone.Wow, you really don't understand the world.Oh, some book writers think so. Look, why don't you examine LBJ's record regarding Israel for yourself? And please do a more careful and thorough job.

I do understand the world on a non conspiracy theory nut way. Do you have any sort of actual evidence that LBJ worked with Israel to kill Kennedy? Yes or no?

[Sparko]

and we already think you are a tin-foil-hat-wearing nut, TS. No need to try to give us more evidence.

[Sparko]

So.... TS

Malaysian Flight 370?

Aliens? Government coverup? Time Travel?

[Truthseeker]

So.... TS

Malaysian Flight 370?

Aliens? Government coverup? Time Travel?

Sorry I do not have any evidence for whatever hypothesis you manage to come up with.

Say, do you believe in the Warren Commission Report, yet?

[Carrikature]

When I worked at Morton-Thiokol and saw Shuttle Challenger explode, there were conspiracy and cover-up theories regarding flawed o-ring design, and also a forced launch in abnormally cold conditions that would knowingly affect o-ring performance, for reasons of having the teacher in space so President Reagan boast about it in the State of the Union Address later that day. I don't know if the latter is true, but none of us could believe they were launching with icicles hanging off of everything; the whole thing was pretty suspicious.

Icicles would not have mattered if the equipment was designed to operate in such conditions. I was involved in test-firing a STANDARD Missile rocket motor (which used the exact same O-ring material) in similar conditions, and it failed in the same way.

My college statistics professor presented us with a graph of O-ring failures in various temperatures. Supposedly, it was the same graph that the engineers had used as part of their decision in allowing the launch. The problem was that all of the zero failure launches were removed from the data, so it looked like O-ring failures were fairly similar regardless of temperature (not helped that low temperature launches had lower data points). When viewed with the zero failure launches, the picture was drastically different. Whether or not that was done intentionally is probably impossible to prove, but it smacks of rushed ignorance. Engineers are unfortunately good at that. Comes with the territory.

[Sparko]

Sorry I do not have any evidence for whatever hypothesis you manage to come up with.

Say, do you believe in the Warren Commission Report, yet?

JFK was killed by Nixon who was an alien from the year 2098 and the planet watergate. Nixon went back and possessed Oswald and used him as a puppet. Clinton, another alien from 2098 also went back to try to stop Nixon. He possessed a CIA operative on the grassy knoll. He attempted to shoot Oswald, but he tripped and his gun accidentally hit JFK too.