Originally posted by Spartacus
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Catholic publications call for end to capital punishment
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWere prisons only just invented? Was the court of law only just invented? What advance do you think makes capital punishment no longer necessary?
Under this general theory, capital punishment is only ultimately justifiable (whatever secondary social benefits it may have) as an act of collective self-defense. Just as we would not want a police officer to use a gun when a taser will suffice, we should not want our judicial system to employ the noose when cells and shackles will suffice.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostYou are entirely mistaken. My point is that the editorial is advancing an argument to provoke an emotional reaction in readers that will be the foundation of their subsequent moral judgment.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThe stance on the death penalty is a prudential one: because we have the means to reliably prevent criminals from causing any further harm to society without killing them, we should rely on those means rather than taking a life. It is no longer necessary for the defense of the common good for the government to take the lives of criminals it has apprehended such that it is able to put them on trial, therefore it is no longer moral for them to claim that right.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThat's precisely what you've done: you've seized on the word abhorrent as proof that, whatever else the editorial may say, they're really just trying to justify their emotional reaction.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostNot at all. The title of the thread is 'Catholic publications call for end to capital punishment', not something along the lines of 'Should we keep the death penalty?' Hence, commenting about said call and how it aligns with long-term cultural trends is perfectly apropos.
I still await a coherent explanation of how I contribute to emotivism, but I doubt it'll happen.
Emotivism as a moral theory is ultimately not about legitimizing certain kinds of moral statements, but about reducing all moral judgments to the same plane, a point at which they can all be easily dismissed.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostIf arguments about the morality of the death penalty don't interest you, then you're only dragging the thread off-topic. You have no business here.
You are contributing to the trend of emotivism; the authors of the editorial most certainly are not.
I still await a coherent explanation of how I contribute to emotivism, but I doubt it'll happen.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View Posthttp://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...-death-penalty
That piece discusses some of the relevant statistics r.e. Catholics' stances on capital punishment. You may find it of interest.
Personally, I have nothing against the death penalty on principle. I do realize that it's become so expensive and cumbersome that it's not really useful. I also happen to be a white American, although non-religious. I can understand the cultural influences on American Catholics.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostWhat exactly are the means that we can use to prevent criminals from doing any more harm to society?
Keeping them in overcrowded prisons that we as taxpayers are funding?
"Rehabilitating" them, allowing them out on parole? I have to tell you that this one is risky. So many people let out on parole reoffend, no matter how "rehabilitated" they are. One murderer in Canada was released on parole this past week and promptly disappeared and a warrant is out for his arrest, which stretches the police further.
With the modern advances in science using dna and so on, there is no reason for fear that the wrong person will be executed any more. Which, aside from "human rights", is the best argument for abstaining from the death penalty.
Nowadays, not so much a good argument. And I can guarantee that the person executed in a swift and humane manner will never perpetrate another crime against anyone, and it WILL be a deterrent to others.
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Originally posted by Yttrium View PostYes, I was thinking more of the Catholic Church as a whole. Polititicians tend to loosen their standards on religious issues. I've seen plenty of that with conservative Catholic polititicans regarding fiscal issues, and liberal Catholic politicians regarding social issues.
That piece discusses some of the relevant statistics r.e. Catholics' stances on capital punishment. You may find it of interest.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIt functions as one major argument. Careful readers will not that I have not used it in anyway to dismiss the anti-death penalty stance; I merely note it as a form of terrible argumentation that is part of the trend.
The other arguments, which you claim are rational don't interest me because I post in this thread not to argue on the issue of death penalty.
It is ironic and rather amusing that you accuse me of being emotivist given your defense of 'abhorrent', projecting your own flaws when your defense of that line of argument fails. Why indeed, some persons would consider it tu quoque.
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Originally posted by SpartacusThe stance on the death penalty is a prudential one: because we have the means to reliably prevent criminals from causing any further harm to society without killing them, we should rely on those means rather than taking a life. It is no longer necessary for the defense of the common good for the government to take the lives of criminals it has apprehended such that it is able to put them on trial, therefore it is no longer moral for them to claim that right.
Keeping them in overcrowded prisons that we as taxpayers are funding?
"Rehabilitating" them, allowing them out on parole? I have to tell you that this one is risky. So many people let out on parole reoffend, no matter how "rehabilitated" they are. One murderer in Canada was released on parole this past week and promptly disappeared and a warrant is out for his arrest, which stretches the police further.
With the modern advances in science using dna and so on, there is no reason for fear that the wrong person will be executed any more. Which, aside from "human rights", is the best argument for abstaining from the death penalty.
Nowadays, not so much a good argument. And I can guarantee that the person executed in a swift and humane manner will never perpetrate another crime against anyone, and it WILL be a deterrent to others.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostConservative Catholics, like the Evangelicals with whom they have been allies for a few decades, are at least somewhat less likely to oppose the death penalty. If you look into the comment boxes on the Register site, you'll see for yourself how some segments of their readership feel about it.
I am not personally acquainted with any pro-life organizations that do not offer resources to mothers and children after birth. The talking point you raise refers most directly to nominally anti-abortion (Republican) politicians who also favor austerity with respect to welfare, and to a certain extent, I can grant that point. Politicians, most particularly on the right, don't all take the implications of an anti-abortion stance to heart, but in my own experience, people on the ground are quite willing to give of their own time, talent, and treasure to support young women and their children.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostYou've picked out exactly one word from an excerpt of an article and treated it as if it's the entire argument of the editorial.
If that were the only argument offered by the editorial, your point would be well taken. In fact, it's not even the only argument offered in the section I excerpted...
Emotivism is not exclusively a phenomenon of the right or of the left, and the fact that you have so far refused to examine any the rational arguments the editorial offered and instead dismissed it as an argument based solely on an emotional response suggests that, of all the participants in this thread, you're the one most influenced by emotivism.
It is ironic and rather amusing that you accuse me of being emotivist given your defense of 'abhorrent', projecting your own flaws when your defense of that line of argument fails. Why indeed, some persons would consider it tu quoque.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostYou may choose to regard it as abhorrent. As before, that label is purely emotional and carries no [moral] epistemic weight; any suasion it achieves is based on the feels: "we should not do this which makes me feelbad".
Hence it serves as a concession to spirit of the age of emotivism: moral good is what makes me feel good, moral evil is what makes me feel bad.
The Catholic Church's stance against the death penalty is rooted not in simple feelings, but in a particular understanding of human dignity stemming from the indelible imago dei. If anything, the people who support the death penalty because it's what they think the perpetrator deserves are leaning more heavily on their emotional reactions than in any well-developed notion of human dignity or of justice.
Emotivism is not exclusively a phenomenon of the right or of the left, and the fact that you have so far refused to examine any the rational arguments the editorial offered and instead dismissed it as an argument based solely on an emotional response suggests that, of all the participants in this thread, you're the one most influenced by emotivism.
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