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Catholic publications call for end to capital punishment

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
    God also allowed divorce under the mosaic law, and I seem to recall Jesus having said some words about that.
    God actually commanded the death penalty. Moses allowed the divorce, not God.

    Matt 19:8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

    But if the death penalty is evil then you are saying that God is evil because he commanded it.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      God actually commanded the death penalty. Moses allowed the divorce, not God.

      Matt 19:8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

      But if the death penalty is evil then you are saying that God is evil because he commanded it.
      Present a facile argument, get a facile response.

      Honestly, I have no confidence that you're approaching this thread in good faith. If someone whose bona fides is already established in this thread thinks that this presents a serious obstacle, raise the question and I'll put together a serious response.
      Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
        Present a facile argument, get a facile response.

        Honestly, I have no confidence that you're approaching this thread in good faith. If someone whose bona fides is already established in this thread thinks that this presents a serious obstacle, raise the question and I'll put together a serious response.

        I was just objecting to your categorizing the death penalty as evil.

        Also, in the first article linked in the OP...

        It argues that the Catechism and the Pope are against the Death Penalty.

        1. The Catechism they linked to says no such thing. It just talks about defending yourself or others and killing the attacker. It says that is allowed.
        2. The article that they link to that says the Pope is against the Death Penalty says that he is also against Life Sentences (and calls them a “concealed death sentence”)

        So what to do? Just let murderers out on the street? Slap them on the wrist and say "Bad Boy!!"??

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I was just objecting to your categorizing the death penalty as evil.

          Also, in the first article linked in the OP...

          It argues that the Catechism and the Pope are against the Death Penalty.

          1. The Catechism they linked to says no such thing. It just talks about defending yourself or others and killing the attacker. It says that is allowed.
          2. The article that they link to that says the Pope is against the Death Penalty says that he is also against Life Sentences (and calls them a “concealed death sentence”)

          So what to do? Just let murderers out on the street? Slap them on the wrist and say "Bad Boy!!"??
          I still have no confidence that you're approaching this conversation in good faith. Same idea as above. If someone else wants an answer to these questions, say so and I'll see what I can do by way of explanation, but I have no intention of responding personally to Sparko in this thread unless he can manage to demonstrate a willingness to understand these arguments in greater depth than you'd see out of a cable news host.
          Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

          Comment


          • #35
            Just so we're all perfectly clear on this point, I don't think I'd be psychologically capable of responding to Sparko even if I wanted to. Or, as the cliche goes, "It's not you, it's me."
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
              I still have no confidence that you're approaching this conversation in good faith. Same idea as above. If someone else wants an answer to these questions, say so and I'll see what I can do by way of explanation, but I have no intention of responding personally to Sparko in this thread unless he can manage to demonstrate a willingness to understand these arguments in greater depth than you'd see out of a cable news host.
              You are the one who linked the article as your argument, and then called the death penalty evil. If you are unable or unwilling to answer objections to that, then it is you who is avoiding the issue and I would think that you grasp that your argument is weak and so you would rather use some ad hom against me rather than try to defend your views.

              So be it.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                The stance on the death penalty is a prudential one: because we have the means to reliably prevent criminals from causing any further harm to society without killing them, we should rely on those means rather than taking a life. It is no longer necessary for the defense of the common good for the government to take the lives of criminals it has apprehended such that it is able to put them on trial, therefore it is no longer moral for them to claim that right.
                Our penal system is virtually useless for changing criminals. And it is way too over crowded. This is not a viable argument.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  I am not personally acquainted with any pro-life organizations that do not offer resources to mothers and children after birth. The talking point you raise refers most directly to nominally anti-abortion (Republican) politicians who also favor austerity with respect to welfare, and to a certain extent, I can grant that point. Politicians, most particularly on the right, don't all take the implications of an anti-abortion stance to heart, but in my own experience, people on the ground are quite willing to give of their own time, talent, and treasure to support young women and their children.
                  Private organizations do a great deal to help escapees from abortion. The government will never do an efficient job of taking care of these people. I agree with your "anti-abortion politicians" with the idea of cutting welfare, cutting taxes overall, and allowing Christian people (and other sympathizers) to do the job they are already doing, and be able to so it better.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Our penal system is virtually useless for changing criminals. And it is way too over crowded. This is not a viable argument.
                    I agree that our penal system is deeply flawed, particularly with respect to rehabilitation and reconciliation (the editorial invokes restorative justice), but even with that aside, executing at most couple dozen criminals a year doesn't come anywhere close to addressing overcrowding.
                    Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                      I still have no confidence that you're approaching this conversation in good faith. Same idea as above. If someone else wants an answer to these questions, say so and I'll see what I can do by way of explanation, but I have no intention of responding personally to Sparko in this thread unless he can manage to demonstrate a willingness to understand these arguments in greater depth than you'd see out of a cable news host.
                      Sounds like Sparko's approach is honest and valid. Your rejection holds no answer. Why are you unwilling to deal with a very real question?
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                        Sounds like Sparko's approach is honest and valid. Your rejection holds no answer. Why are you unwilling to deal with a very real question?
                        Because Sparko's conversation style reminds me too much of FOX News. As I've said, if someone else is willing to re-present the arguments in a manner that is less obnoxious to my disposition, I'd be perfectly willing to enter an in-depth discussion.
                        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                          Because Sparko's conversation style reminds me too much of FOX News. As I've said, if someone else is willing to re-present the arguments in a manner that is less obnoxious to my disposition, I'd be perfectly willing to enter an in-depth discussion.
                          This after you spent several posts arguing with Paprika over one word in the article.

                          I merely questioned your use of evil, and then pointed out some flaws in the OP articles arguments.

                          I think it is you who is not being honest here. I shall go away and leave you alone.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                            Prisons are far more reliable in modern times than in the past: we can be quite certain of our capacity to indefinitely prevent the imprisoned person from harming anyone else.
                            No, we can't. People still manage to escape from prisons, and early parole often lets criminals loose before their sentence is complete (and our prison system is terrible at reforming prisoners).
                            Under this general theory, capital punishment is only ultimately justifiable (whatever secondary social benefits it may have) as an act of collective self-defense. Just as we would not want a police officer to use a gun when a taser will suffice, we should not want our judicial system to employ the noose when cells and shackles will suffice.
                            Since when was capital punishment an act of collective self-defense?
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              With the modern advances in science using dna and so on, there is no reason for fear that the wrong person will be executed any more. Which, aside from "human rights", is the best argument for abstaining from the death penalty.
                              This is, unfortunately, nowhere close to accurate. That's especially true with a killer sophisticated enough to plant such evidence without leaving their own.


                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Since when was capital punishment an act of collective self-defense?
                              On what other grounds is it established?
                              I'm not here anymore.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I concur with OBP in that the Tanakh's command of capital punishment completely precludes us from any declaration that it is immoral. Many orthodox theologians hold that the Mosaic Law had concessions that were suboptimal (as Jesus's statements on divorce may suggest), but it is problematic, to say the least, to outright say that something God would command is inherently wrong.
                                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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