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Hands Up Don't Shoot!

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  • Zymologist
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Yesterday, I heard from a prominant former black congressman (he was one of the founding members of the Congressional Black [Democrats] Caucus) who cited the Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin cases as an example of racially biased police brutality. He also claimed that the distrust that exists between black communities and their respective police departments is entirely the fault of the police, and that it's up to the police to repair those relations.

    Racial relations will not improve until people come to grips with the truth.
    If people want to talk about police racism, they really really ought to cite actual examples of police racism.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Whaddya wanna bet the leftist idiots shrug this off and STILL carry on the "hands up" idiocy?
    Yesterday, I heard from a prominant former black congressman (he was one of the founding members of the Congressional Black [Democrats] Caucus) who cited the Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin cases as an example of racially biased police brutality. He also claimed that the distrust that exists between black communities and their respective police departments is entirely the fault of the police, and that it's up to the police to repair those relations.

    Racial relations will not improve until people come to grips with the truth.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    The report elsewhere notes that black people make up the majority of arrests/stops for drug checks but are 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.
    Square, you do agree that percentage wise African Americans are more likely to commit crimes than whites.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    They came to that conclusion on the basis of eyewitness testimony.
    Nope -- they came to that conclusion based on the most DRAMATIC testimony that supported their forgone conclusion.

    If Brown raised his hands in mock surrender, it's easy to see how some witnesses might've misperceived that as genuine surrender.
    MOMENTARILY, and he was, at the time, mocking the officer saying "you're not going to shoot me, you're too much of a ******".....

    ANY due diligence would have caused them to step back a little and do some more fact gathering before trying/convicting/condemning Wilson.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    The "jokes" are horrifyingly racist.
    Right, I forgot how easy it is for you to go into a seizure.

    The report elsewhere notes that black people make up the majority of arrests/stops for drug checks but are 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.
    It's not elsewhere, it's in the part you quoted and it has nothing to do with what I said was missing (namely, crime rates, and no, rate of found contraband is not the same thing).

    Wrongfully detaining and brutalizing minorities doesn't suggest anything to you?
    Not really. Why should it? In and of itself it doesn't mean anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • fm93
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You mean, because the MSM from DAY ONE was determined that this was a white police officer gunning down a completely innocent black youth?

    It would have been FAR better to look for FACTS than manufacture a STORY.
    They came to that conclusion on the basis of eyewitness testimony. If Brown raised his hands in mock surrender, it's easy to see how some witnesses might've misperceived that as genuine surrender.

    Leave a comment:


  • fm93
    replied
    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
    How are a few jokes sent around through email "horrifying racist behavior"?
    The "jokes" are horrifyingly racist.

    This data is meaningless because it omits the massive disparity in black and white crime rates. The reason why African Americans are targeted a lot more often is because they commit crimes a lot more often.
    The report elsewhere notes that black people make up the majority of arrests/stops for drug checks but are 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.

    How are the first two racist?
    Wrongfully detaining and brutalizing minorities doesn't suggest anything to you?


    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Yeah you can always trust the testimony of criminals when it comes to the topic of Police.
    The report says that video and police records showed that those men weren't criminals.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    In which case it's even more understandable how the idea that Brown was surrendering came to be, isn't it?.
    You mean, because the MSM from DAY ONE was determined that this was a white police officer gunning down a completely innocent black youth?

    It would have been FAR better to look for FACTS than manufacture a STORY.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Yeah you can always trust the testimony of criminals when it comes to the topic of Police.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darth Executor
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    In which case it's even more understandable how the idea that Brown was surrendering came to be, isn't it?

    The article that seer presents in the OP may have presented an accurate statement, but it's woefully one-sided in its coverage. For one thing, the Department of Justice also conducted an investigation in which the DOJ found that there were apparently persistent patterns and accounts of horrifying racist behavior on the part of the Ferguson police department--which the Daily Caller neglects to mention. (The report may be found here.) This includes several emails forwarded among police officers:

    November 2008: An e-mail said President Obama would not be president for very long because “what black man holds a steady job for four years.”
    March 2010: An e-mail mocked African Americans through a story involving child support. One line from the e-mail read: “I be so glad that dis be my last child support payment! Month after month, year after year, all dose payments!”
    April 2011: An e-mail depicted Obama as a chimpanzee.
    May 2011: An e-mail said: “An African-American woman in New Orleans was admitted into the hospital for a pregnancy termination. Two weeks later she received a check for $5,000. She phoned the hospital to ask who it was from. The hospital said, ‘Crimestoppers.’”
    June 2011: An e-mail described a man seeking to obtain “welfare” for his dogs because they are “mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can’t speak English and have no frigging clue who their Daddies are.”
    October 2011: An e-mail included a photo of a group of bare-chested women dancing, seemingly in Africa, with the caption, “Michelle Obama’s High School Reunion.”
    How are a few jokes sent around through email "horrifying racist behavior"?

    This is "horrifying racist behavior":

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1033062

    "They rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open," Coon told KMBC. "(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the Bic, and said, 'This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.'"

    By lighting the gasoline, the second attacker "produced a large fireball burning the face and hair" of the boy, according to a Kansas City Police Department report obtained by KCTV.
    Data collected by the Ferguson Police Department from 2012 to 2014 shows that African Americans account for 85% of vehicle stops, 90% of citations, and 93% of arrests made by FPD officers, despite comprising only 67% of Ferguson's population. African Americans are more than twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race based variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are found in possession of contraband 26% less often than white drivers, suggesting officers are impermissibly considering race as a factor when determining whether to search. From 2012 to 2014, FPD issued four or more citations to African Americans on 73 occasions, but issued four or more citations to non-African Americans only twice. FPD appears to bring certain offenses almost exclusively against African Americans. For example, from 2011 to 2013, African Americans accounted for 95% of Manner of Walking in Roadway chargers, and 94% of all Failure to Comply charges. Notably, with respect to speeding charges brought by FPD, the evidence shows not only that African Americans are represented at disproportionately high rates overall, but also that the disparate impact of FPD's enforcement practices on African Americans is 48% larger when citations are issued not on the basis of radar or laser, but by some other method, such as the officer's own visual assessment.

    These disparities are also present in FPD's use of force. Nearly 90% of documented force used by FPD officers are used against African Americans. In every canine bite incident for which racial information is available, the person bitter was African American.

    Municipal court practices likewise cause disproportionate harm to African Americans. African Americans are 68% less likely than others to have their cases dismissed by the court, and are more likely to have their cases last longer and result in more required court encounters. African Americans are at least 50% more likely to have their cases lead to an arrest warrant, and accounted for 92% of cases in which an arrest warrant was issued by the Ferguson Municipal Court in 2013. Available data show that, of those actually arrested by FPD only because of an outstanding municipal warrant, 96% are African American. (pg 4-5)
    This data is meaningless because it omits the massive disparity in black and white crime rates. The reason why African Americans are targeted a lot more often is because they commit crimes a lot more often. Just about every time these misleading statistics are brought up it usually turns out that the cops actually go easier on blacks than they would on whites if crime rates were similar.

    And then there are these deeply disturbing accounts:

    In July 2013 police encountered an African-American man in a parking lot while on their way to arrest someone else at an apartment building. Police knew that the encountered man was not the person they had come to arrest. Nonetheless, without even reasonable suspicion, they handcuffed the man, placed him in the back of a patrol car, and ran his record. It turned out he was the intended arrestee's landlord. (pg 17)

    In January 2013, a patrol sergeant stopped an African-American man after he saw the man talk to an individual in a truck and then walk away. The sergeant detained the man, although he did not articulate any reasonable suspicion that criminal activity was afoot. When the man declined to answer questions or submit to a frisk--which the sergeant sought to execute despite articulating no reason to believe the man was armed--the sergeant grabbed the man by the belt, drew his ECW, and ordered the man to comply. The man crossed his arms and objected that he had not done anything wrong. Video captured by the ECW's built-in camera shows that the man made no aggressive movement toward the officer. The sergeant fired the ECW, applying a five-second cycle of electricity and causing the man to fall to the ground. The sergeant almost immediately applied the ECW again, which he later justified in his report by claiming that the man tried to stand up. The video makes clear, however, that the man never tried to stand--he only writed in pain on the ground. The video also shows that the sergeant applied the ECW nearly continuously for 20 seconds, longer than represented in his report. (pg 37)

    We spoke with one African-American man who, in August 2014, had an argument in his apartment to which FPD officers responded, and was immediately pulled out of his apartment by force. After telling the officer, "you don't have a reason to lock me up," he claims the officer responded: "N*****, I can find something to lock you up on." When the man responded, "good luck with that," the officer slammed his face into the wall, and after the man fell to the floor, the officer said, "don't pass out [censored] because I'm not carrying you to my car." (pg 76)
    How are the first two racist? And the last one's testimony is pretty worthless considering the Ferguson community's policy of protecting and lying for criminals.

    So, it seems that the "hands up, don't shoot" movement may have been based on erroneous eyewitness testimony, but I believe that we do ourselves and others a disservice by focusing only on one side. If we want to make sure something like Ferguson never happens again, both sides need to be evaluated, and as I said earlier, the truth appears to be complex and messy. If this report is accurate, it certainly sheds light on the depth of the racial tension and anger in the town, and makes it much more understandable as to why so many citizens were quick to believe that Brown was indeed shot while surrendering. It would also hint at an answer to a question that's long baffled me--assuming the veracity of Wilson's testimony, what possessed an 18-year old to so angrily disrespect and charge a police officer.
    I agree that both sides should be evaluated. In the Michael Brown case specifically the Ferguson black community was largely proven to be perfectly willing to lie for a known criminal (the black people who testified against Brown did not go on camera, which tells us all there is to know about what would happen to them if they had). Their broader complaints appear to be the usual fare: lower class blacks committing crimes then crying because they're "unfairly" targeted, cops being predictably more violent and ruthless in high crime communities because only thrill seekers and psychopaths actually want to work there, liberals molesting statistics like a Rotherham Pakistani gang, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • fm93
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Several of the reports, drowned out by the hysteria, said that Brown raised his hands in a mock surrender, while taunting Wilson to shoot him.
    In which case it's even more understandable how the idea that Brown was surrendering came to be, isn't it?

    The article that seer presents in the OP may have presented an accurate statement, but it's woefully one-sided in its coverage. For one thing, the Department of Justice also conducted an investigation in which the DOJ found that there were apparently persistent patterns and accounts of horrifying racist behavior on the part of the Ferguson police department--which the Daily Caller neglects to mention. (The report may be found here.) This includes several emails forwarded among police officers:

    November 2008: An e-mail said President Obama would not be president for very long because “what black man holds a steady job for four years.”
    March 2010: An e-mail mocked African Americans through a story involving child support. One line from the e-mail read: “I be so glad that dis be my last child support payment! Month after month, year after year, all dose payments!”
    April 2011: An e-mail depicted Obama as a chimpanzee.
    May 2011: An e-mail said: “An African-American woman in New Orleans was admitted into the hospital for a pregnancy termination. Two weeks later she received a check for $5,000. She phoned the hospital to ask who it was from. The hospital said, ‘Crimestoppers.’”
    June 2011: An e-mail described a man seeking to obtain “welfare” for his dogs because they are “mixed in color, unemployed, lazy, can’t speak English and have no frigging clue who their Daddies are.”
    October 2011: An e-mail included a photo of a group of bare-chested women dancing, seemingly in Africa, with the caption, “Michelle Obama’s High School Reunion.”


    Along with some concerning statistics:

    Data collected by the Ferguson Police Department from 2012 to 2014 shows that African Americans account for 85% of vehicle stops, 90% of citations, and 93% of arrests made by FPD officers, despite comprising only 67% of Ferguson's population. African Americans are more than twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race based variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are found in possession of contraband 26% less often than white drivers, suggesting officers are impermissibly considering race as a factor when determining whether to search. From 2012 to 2014, FPD issued four or more citations to African Americans on 73 occasions, but issued four or more citations to non-African Americans only twice. FPD appears to bring certain offenses almost exclusively against African Americans. For example, from 2011 to 2013, African Americans accounted for 95% of Manner of Walking in Roadway chargers, and 94% of all Failure to Comply charges. Notably, with respect to speeding charges brought by FPD, the evidence shows not only that African Americans are represented at disproportionately high rates overall, but also that the disparate impact of FPD's enforcement practices on African Americans is 48% larger when citations are issued not on the basis of radar or laser, but by some other method, such as the officer's own visual assessment.

    These disparities are also present in FPD's use of force. Nearly 90% of documented force used by FPD officers are used against African Americans. In every canine bite incident for which racial information is available, the person bitter was African American.

    Municipal court practices likewise cause disproportionate harm to African Americans. African Americans are 68% less likely than others to have their cases dismissed by the court, and are more likely to have their cases last longer and result in more required court encounters. African Americans are at least 50% more likely to have their cases lead to an arrest warrant, and accounted for 92% of cases in which an arrest warrant was issued by the Ferguson Municipal Court in 2013. Available data show that, of those actually arrested by FPD only because of an outstanding municipal warrant, 96% are African American. (pg 4-5)


    And then there are these deeply disturbing accounts:

    In July 2013 police encountered an African-American man in a parking lot while on their way to arrest someone else at an apartment building. Police knew that the encountered man was not the person they had come to arrest. Nonetheless, without even reasonable suspicion, they handcuffed the man, placed him in the back of a patrol car, and ran his record. It turned out he was the intended arrestee's landlord. (pg 17)

    In January 2013, a patrol sergeant stopped an African-American man after he saw the man talk to an individual in a truck and then walk away. The sergeant detained the man, although he did not articulate any reasonable suspicion that criminal activity was afoot. When the man declined to answer questions or submit to a frisk--which the sergeant sought to execute despite articulating no reason to believe the man was armed--the sergeant grabbed the man by the belt, drew his ECW, and ordered the man to comply. The man crossed his arms and objected that he had not done anything wrong. Video captured by the ECW's built-in camera shows that the man made no aggressive movement toward the officer. The sergeant fired the ECW, applying a five-second cycle of electricity and causing the man to fall to the ground. The sergeant almost immediately applied the ECW again, which he later justified in his report by claiming that the man tried to stand up. The video makes clear, however, that the man never tried to stand--he only writed in pain on the ground. The video also shows that the sergeant applied the ECW nearly continuously for 20 seconds, longer than represented in his report. (pg 37)

    We spoke with one African-American man who, in August 2014, had an argument in his apartment to which FPD officers responded, and was immediately pulled out of his apartment by force. After telling the officer, "you don't have a reason to lock me up," he claims the officer responded: "N*****, I can find something to lock you up on." When the man responded, "good luck with that," the officer slammed his face into the wall, and after the man fell to the floor, the officer said, "don't pass out [censored] because I'm not carrying you to my car." (pg 76)


    So, it seems that the "hands up, don't shoot" movement may have been based on erroneous eyewitness testimony, but I believe that we do ourselves and others a disservice by focusing only on one side. If we want to make sure something like Ferguson never happens again, both sides need to be evaluated, and as I said earlier, the truth appears to be complex and messy. If this report is accurate, it certainly sheds light on the depth of the racial tension and anger in the town, and makes it much more understandable as to why so many citizens were quick to believe that Brown was indeed shot while surrendering. It would also hint at an answer to a question that's long baffled me--assuming the veracity of Wilson's testimony, what possessed an 18-year old to so angrily disrespect and charge a police officer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    Wilson did acknowledge that Brown held his hands up at some point early in the confrontation....
    Several of the reports, drowned out by the hysteria, said that Brown raised his hands in a mock surrender, while taunting Wilson to shoot him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    No. I never argued that.
    OK... I misrembercated. Sorry.

    Leave a comment:


  • fm93
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Weren't you one of the ones fervently arguing, right along side Jimmy, that Brown was surrendering?
    No. I never argued that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by square_peg View Post
    Not really.
    Weren't you one of the ones fervently arguing, right along side Jimmy, that Brown was surrendering?

    Leave a comment:

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